Neandertal DNA in Humans

[The Knize]

Anyone an expert in this area? I am fascinated by the very recent reports that scientists comparing human and Neandertal DNA seem to have concluded that homo sapiansand Neandertal's interbred, but I am also fascinated by this as an example of scientific reporting and the issue of whether the orthodox science is often wrong, so that collectively we should strive to always be open to re-explorinig fundamental theories taken for granted.

First, I thought that prior to these results the majority theory was that homo sapiens and Neandertals were separate species and therefore could not interbred, while there was some minority thinking that some of the skelatal evidence showed individuals who seemed too have characteristics of each. The news reports I have read either do not mention that lots of scientists asserted strongly that there could not be interbreeding or that that theory was a minority one. [I conclude that news folks do not like to do homework, and that scientists are loathe to point out previously errors in thinking.]

Second, the reports seem to say that they think the gene flow was one way. What would be the expanation for that other than we really do not have all that many examples of Neandertal DNA, whereas a modern humans DNA has had thousands of years to intermix since the Neandertal specimen. Seems like a meaningless conclusion to me.

It sounds like wonderful science. Is it as groundbreakinig as it seems?

 

[cheerwind]

so tempted...

 

[82R100]

I once worked with a guy who could have been the artist's model for the Neanderthal in Life magazine (at least in terms of facial structure).

Really.

- Chris

 

[Fairlight]

As difficult as it is to decide today whether Neanderthal Man was a subspecies or distinct species (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis or homo neanderthalensis) compared to homo sapiens, it would have been even HARDER back then. It's doubtful they would even have had much of a concept of difference beyond the differences we recognize between Chinese and Arabs, for example.

Evidence of interbreeding would seem to mean they were a subspecies rather than a distinct species though, by the definition of "species". If this study is right, then that would mean "homo sapiens neanderthalensis" is the proper latin name for them.

 

[gaseousclay]

First, I thought that prior to these results the majority theory was that homo sapiens and Neandertals were separate species and therefore could not interbred, while there was some minority thinking that some of the skelatal evidence showed individuals who seemed too have characteristics of each.

I suppose it's possible. my co-worker has the hallmark characteristics of a Neanderthal.....sloping forehead, messed up teeth, hunched back, etc.

 

[Thebigspendur]

People think the Neanderthal just died out like the Dinosaurs who evolved into birds when in fact they probably just melded into us. So when you call your brother-in-law a neanderthal your really not kidding.

 

[Fairlight]

People think the Neanderthal just died out like the Dinosaurs who evolved into birds when in fact they probably just melded into us. So when you call your brother-in-law a neanderthal your really not kidding.

+1

It's difficult to differentiate between the two, really, because it's quite possible that, for example, all the neanderthal men were killed and the women taken as wives, or something similar. Heredity is complicated.

 

[The Knize]

+1

It's difficult to differentiate between the two, really, because it's quite possible that, for example, all the neanderthal men were killed and the women taken as wives, or something similar. Heredity is complicated.

Thanks. Good analysis. Actually, as I think about this, it is on its face absurd, right? At one point or another supposedly, if the theory is at all correct and we do not have enough to say it is, the would have been an offspring that was 1/2 modern or I suppose Cro Magnon man and 1/2 Neandertal, assuming there was a pure version of each ever. So who is to say that that individual was modern man or Neandertal, no matter what group he was living with, and the latters seems pretty speculative. I seriously doubt we know enough to say that no one who was not part modern and part Neandertal ever went back to the Neandertals and hooked up with a Neadertal. So to conclude that there was not flow of genes from humans back to Neandertals seemed based on way too small a sample of Neandertal DNA!

 

[LagerLover]

It has been investigated and found that Neanderthal DNA has been found in modern society, specifically in airport baggage handlers and carnival ride operators. These particular vocations are known to be the evolutionary dead-end for many varied species of hominids, with a secondary branch of Neanderthal + Hyena intermix in slip and fall injury lawyers.

 

[CookieMan]

It has been investigated and found that Neanderthal DNA has been found in modern society, specifically in airport baggage handlers and carnival ride operators. These particular vocations are known to be the evolutionary dead-end for many varied species of hominids, with a secondary branch of Neanderthal + Hyena intermix in slip and fall injury lawyers.

Not to be a Buzz Killington, but one of the greatest men I knew was a carnival ride operator up until his death this past year. His story is long and amazing and I'd just hate to think that my wife would read this as he was her grandfather-the man who raised her.

 

[Fairlight]

Never forget that "species" is a human concept, an attempt to categorize biodiversity. In cases where our definition of "species" conflicts with observed reality in nature, it is always our nomenclature that is mistaken by definition.

 

[StylinLA]

I once worked with a guy who could have been the artist's model for the Neanderthal in Life magazine (at least in terms of facial structure).

Really.

- Chris

Me too. I don't don't there was some inter mingling. Men are horny bastards.

 

[StylinLA]

It's doubtful they would even have had much of a concept of difference beyond the differences we recognize between Chinese and Arabs, for example.

Yup. With limited language, about the only distinction the two groups could make about each other was probably "not us."

 

[Fairlight]

Me too. I don't don't there was some inter mingling. Men are horny bastards.

We're talking about human beings. Women are horny bastards too, we've just conditioned them as a society not to admit it. Thankfully, that is changing.

 

[StylinLA]

We're talking about human beings. Women are horny bastards too, we've just conditioned them as a society not to admit it. Thankfully, that is changing.

Yup...probably more uninhibited back then too without the booze...

 

[professorchaos]

In all seriousness, seeing the way some people act in public, sometimes I am convinced that Neanderthals have co-evolved and live among us.

 

[Alacrity59]

You're missing the point . . . global warming is going to kill us. . . maybe even before the nukes . . . or eating beef.

Have I insulted enough people yet?

Do you mind if I help the guy I passed yesterday sleeping beside the garbage can before engaging in . . . ack.

 

[KarthVader]

There is a definitely possibility that humans and Neanderthals co-existed and co-mingled.

Theories as to why Neanderthals are extinct range from lack of nutrients in Europe to requiring more than 3000 kcals per day to facilitate a full life. I'm not sure about the legitimacy of these ideas, but they seem to be plausible.

There is a NOVA series about human evolution; I think it's called 'Becoming Human'. Very interesting theories and ideas about early human life and development.

Part 1: http://video.pbs.org/video/1312522241/

Part 2: http://video.pbs.org/video/1319997127/

 

[The Nid Hog]

I haven't had time to read the results carefully and this isn't really my thing. However, as provocative as the study might be, there's reason to be cautious about the results. First, as I understand it, the archaeological record doesn't support this conclusion. That doesn't mean that it contradicts it either, so it's difficult to decide exactly what to make of it. Second, the results of the study are still being crunched by other experts in the field, so I'm sure that, at the least, an interesting debate will grow out of this.

Personally, I'm holding out for some more concrete evidence. Maybe an early hotel register? Some prom pictures painted on a cave wall?

 

[Uncle Erik]

...a secondary branch of Neanderthal + Hyena intermix in slip and fall injury lawyers.

I work at a law firm and can confirm this.

Though you seem to have overlooked collection agencies, insurance companies and the DMV.