Im thinking of buying a surgical black Arkansas from dans whetstone but I wanted to see if anyone can compare it to the naniwa 12k. Ok is natural and the other is synthetic so I’m sure that in that alone it will have a different edge. I have the naniwa and it gives a great edge but I’ve heard a lot of people prefer natural finishers so I was thinking of starting with the dans surgical black. What do you guys think or recommend?
Naniwa 12k vs Dans arkansas black
- Thread starter Stapelfeld
- Start date
I’m certainly curious about natural stones, particularly a finisher. My only experience is with a synthetic progression of Naniwa Super/Specialty stones. I feel I’m getting very good results, sharp comfortable edges that feel great. I wish I could just compare a few natural finishers and gauge that experience myself before making an investment, test some stones out over a period of time. Curious to hear the responses.
I don't use synths save the rare India stone but I've heard many people that do say you'll be hard pressed to surpass a properly done hard ark edge. The kicker is that it won't be as easy to produce on a hard ark as it will a synth. For shaving though a coticule edge finished well on a hard ark can match all my finest jnats in keenness and smoothness.
The 12k naniwa "superstone" is very fast if you did your groundwork well. It use to take me definitely less than 20x light x strokes to finish the edge. It's white so swarf shows up right away (and if I saw swarf I know the previous steps weren't up to snuff). I would say it is the easiest finisher I came across but there are dozens out there I have yet to try. I have an old translucent Ark. It is in a different class than the 12k SS. The Ark is Slow and I have to pay attention to each stroke. One bad move and that could cost the edge. BUT when you nail the edge it is really something else, as was mentioned above. That trans Ark is capable of awfully sharp edges but the resulting shave is wonderful. I may get a bit of aftershave burn but there is no lasting irritation etc. A good edge from that will last me 48 hours before shaving again (I don't have a heavy beard).
The short answer is a properly set up true Surgical Black Hard Arkansas stone can finish a 12k Naniwia Super Stone. A 12k SS cannot finish a Surgical Black. An Ark will add smoothness without sacrificing keenness.
The downside is, “Properly set up”.
A hard Ark must be lapped flat and smooth in order to produce, eek the best performance from the stone. Take a fully honed shave ready edge to the Ark, a 12k Super Stone edge is perfect.
For Max performance lap both sides, (On loose 60 grit Silicone Carbide, Got Grit.com) finish one side to 220 grit or India stone, burnish/polish the other side to mirror/glass finish. From the 12k go to the 220 side, finish on the burnished/polished side.
I cannot shave comfortably from a 12k Super Stone, I can if finished with a Surgical Black.
You will only need to lap the stone once. Lots of posts on lapping Arks.
The downside is, “Properly set up”.
A hard Ark must be lapped flat and smooth in order to produce, eek the best performance from the stone. Take a fully honed shave ready edge to the Ark, a 12k Super Stone edge is perfect.
For Max performance lap both sides, (On loose 60 grit Silicone Carbide, Got Grit.com) finish one side to 220 grit or India stone, burnish/polish the other side to mirror/glass finish. From the 12k go to the 220 side, finish on the burnished/polished side.
I cannot shave comfortably from a 12k Super Stone, I can if finished with a Surgical Black.
You will only need to lap the stone once. Lots of posts on lapping Arks.
I’ve not tried synths past 8k, above that range they aren’t much cheaper (at all?) compared to some of the first rate natural finishers. Among those a black or True Hard from Dan’s is a pretty good option. I now have a Jnat that might even be better than any of my really hard Arks, but it cost quite a bit more as well and the difference is infinitesimal.
I do use synths for all of the low grit work and much of the mid-level work.
An Ark that is set up for finishing will be pretty slow, so do as much work as you can before bringing it to the Ark.
I do use synths for all of the low grit work and much of the mid-level work.
An Ark that is set up for finishing will be pretty slow, so do as much work as you can before bringing it to the Ark.
It's not really reasonable to compare them, because they are complements, not competitors. A true hard/surgical black Ark is a great post-finisher for a shaveable edge finished on a Naniwa 12K SS. Prepared and used properly, it will elevate the performance and comfort of the edge considerably.
But if you tried to use it in place of the 12K, I don't think you'd have a good experience.
I don't recall Dan using the term Surgical. I remember their high end Black Ark to be called "Ultrafine".
Technically, the Ultrafine, or SB, or Translucent, or True Hard, etc - fall into the category of 'Hard Ark'.
But a lot of 'regular' hard Arks do not measure up to one of the Ultrafine Black or Translucent Arks.
In fact, a lot of them are just a hair harder than a soft Ark. So yes, they are 'Hard Arks' but not all Hard Arks are equal.
If you want to know what an Ark edge feels like, get someone to hone one for you.
Or, you can buy one of your own so you can see what it does for you in your house with your gear.
If you hate it, you can sell it for what you paid for it or close enough where you can consider any $$ loss a minor rental fee.
Having someone hone an Ark edge for you is a good idea though.
All Arks need to be lapped flat and it's more work than flattening a Nani SS. It's not a big deal. Really, it isn't.
As far as edge differences go, between the two... it's really apples and oranges. So much depends on the ground work, the blade's geometry, and the users skills. What you experience will depend on a lot on you, just as much as the stone to be honest. I have seen so many people buy Arks and say their edges were harsh. It's them, or their edges, but not the stone; no one wants to hear that though.
IME, finishing on a Translucent or SB or Ultrafine Ark requires the edge coming to it to be spectacularly dead on the money. Other wise the stone is being expected to make up for what should have been done before and it's not that kind of stone. Using an Ark to polish an edge that wasn't really ready for the Ark can be disappointing. When all is groovy though, the result is a unique kind of sharp/smooth balance. Jokingly I'll say it's a 'smart' edge, wants to cut hair, not face.
A lot of people like 12k Nani SS edges. I don't know that all of them would like an Ark finished edge .
I am not the biggest fan of 12k Nani edges, but I am a big fan of Ark edges.
Back when the a large number of honing poobahs were eschewing Arks as being too slow and too inconsistent I was finishing on my SB Ark happily. Just used it the other day actually, and it put a killer finish on that blade.
I use synths often, just not so much to finish. High grit synths make things sharp but its not the kind of edge I want to shave with. It's a preference thing.
I might consider a pre-finish on a 12k SS and then finish on an Ark but more than likely I'd go 12k, Escher, Ark.
Technically, the Ultrafine, or SB, or Translucent, or True Hard, etc - fall into the category of 'Hard Ark'.
But a lot of 'regular' hard Arks do not measure up to one of the Ultrafine Black or Translucent Arks.
In fact, a lot of them are just a hair harder than a soft Ark. So yes, they are 'Hard Arks' but not all Hard Arks are equal.
If you want to know what an Ark edge feels like, get someone to hone one for you.
Or, you can buy one of your own so you can see what it does for you in your house with your gear.
If you hate it, you can sell it for what you paid for it or close enough where you can consider any $$ loss a minor rental fee.
Having someone hone an Ark edge for you is a good idea though.
All Arks need to be lapped flat and it's more work than flattening a Nani SS. It's not a big deal. Really, it isn't.
As far as edge differences go, between the two... it's really apples and oranges. So much depends on the ground work, the blade's geometry, and the users skills. What you experience will depend on a lot on you, just as much as the stone to be honest. I have seen so many people buy Arks and say their edges were harsh. It's them, or their edges, but not the stone; no one wants to hear that though.
IME, finishing on a Translucent or SB or Ultrafine Ark requires the edge coming to it to be spectacularly dead on the money. Other wise the stone is being expected to make up for what should have been done before and it's not that kind of stone. Using an Ark to polish an edge that wasn't really ready for the Ark can be disappointing. When all is groovy though, the result is a unique kind of sharp/smooth balance. Jokingly I'll say it's a 'smart' edge, wants to cut hair, not face.
A lot of people like 12k Nani SS edges. I don't know that all of them would like an Ark finished edge .
I am not the biggest fan of 12k Nani edges, but I am a big fan of Ark edges.
Back when the a large number of honing poobahs were eschewing Arks as being too slow and too inconsistent I was finishing on my SB Ark happily. Just used it the other day actually, and it put a killer finish on that blade.
I use synths often, just not so much to finish. High grit synths make things sharp but its not the kind of edge I want to shave with. It's a preference thing.
I might consider a pre-finish on a 12k SS and then finish on an Ark but more than likely I'd go 12k, Escher, Ark.
I love the idea of using an Escher between between the 12k and the Ark. That reinforces the rule of bringing your best edge to the Ark, ease onto it. I often wondered if anyone used another step but never really inquired.
I was a initially little freaked when I saw Escher being mentioned, thinking if I go down this road I'm gonna' break the bank. Come to think of it, any stone after 12k gets spendy. Some of the high grit synthetics are down right quirky sounding. Not the grit stated, particle density, warping, crazing, weird feeling.
When was the last time you saw a thread on an Escher complaints? Could the Escher actually be the best bang for the buck after 12K? There's an Escher waiting out there somewhere..... with my name on it, search starts now....
My shave off my 12k Shapton Pro was totally different than an Ark edge after 12k. Not for me as long as I have Arks. .
I could do a direct comparison with my stones if there's any interest. I am not sure how relevant it would be due to all the variables at play though.
There is a learning curve, and the ground work needs to be good.
“When was the last time you saw a thread on an Escher complaints?”
Yup, Escher’s/Thuringians are the Honda Accords of stones, they just work. You don’t need to buy a labeled stone, lots of unlabeled or just as good Thuringians in the wild.
I have labeled Thuringian’s and lots of unlabeled, they all work. I have been doing a 10k Suehiro to Ark or Jnat lately, I think the 10k edge is a little better than the 12k Super Stone.
If you finish on the 12k Super Stone, do your finish laps on a clean freshly lapped stone face, swarf can hold back the edge from its full potential.
The 220 side with a bit of Jnat slurry works a treat, finish on the polished side with Smith’s & water. Arks and Jnats are neck and neck for finishing, I too use synthetics and finish on Jnats or vintage Arks.
Many roads to Rome.
Yup, Escher’s/Thuringians are the Honda Accords of stones, they just work. You don’t need to buy a labeled stone, lots of unlabeled or just as good Thuringians in the wild.
I have labeled Thuringian’s and lots of unlabeled, they all work. I have been doing a 10k Suehiro to Ark or Jnat lately, I think the 10k edge is a little better than the 12k Super Stone.
If you finish on the 12k Super Stone, do your finish laps on a clean freshly lapped stone face, swarf can hold back the edge from its full potential.
The 220 side with a bit of Jnat slurry works a treat, finish on the polished side with Smith’s & water. Arks and Jnats are neck and neck for finishing, I too use synthetics and finish on Jnats or vintage Arks.
Many roads to Rome.
Dan's Black Arkansas (Ultra Fine) and Translucent (Extra Fine) stones are as good as they get or ever got. Back in the day, Norton called these hard black and hard translucent. The Naniwa 12k and a Dan's hard black or hard translucent (to use Norton's terminology) are all excellent finishers.
I personally prefer the translucent because I like to hone on a light-colored stone. There is only one way to know and that is to buy one
.
I personally prefer the translucent because I like to hone on a light-colored stone. There is only one way to know and that is to buy one
.BTW, there is a large online knife retailer based in Arlington, VA who sells Dan's bench stones. You normally save a few bucks buying from them. They are currently having a sale and it looks like you can save about an additional 25% off a hard black ultra fine or translucent extra fine this weekend. Look at the sizes carefully. They have hard black ultra fine in 8 x ***2*** x 1/2, 8 x 3 x 1/2 and 6 x 2 x 1/2, and hard translucent extra fine in 6 x 2 x 1/2. Good, good deal!
I personally, like the 6 x 2.
I personally, like the 6 x 2.
I am not sure what this comparison is worth. This is what I ended up with when honed my Dovo razor. It is also quite similar every time I use these stones.
The Arkansas stone is a black translucent (not from Dan's).
Naniwa 12k edge. This is how a mirror polish looks like under magnification. The apex is well defined with no distractions. This type of edge shaves just fine, and is not harsh at all. Just smooth.
This is after spending some time on the Arkansas stone.
Some of the polish is gone, but the apex width is smaller due to the hardness of this stone.
This edge will look better after stropping.
The shave will most likely be a little crisper, but still smooth.
Both these edges will shave well, but will feel quite different.
The steel is also pushed a step further, which might reduce the number of shaves you get from the edge.
The Arkansas stone was used with oil.
I only spent a maximum of 2 min on the Arkansas stone, and I did 8 strokes after a 8k on the 12k.
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