Nagura progression

[blackhhawk]

I currently have a Botan, Tenjou and Mejiro, which I use in that order on my stone. After doing some reading about JNAT honing on coticle.be, their recommendation is to use a Botan, Tenjou OR Mejiro, then Koma. Since Koma is generally rare/expensive, they advise that it can be skipped over if you don't have one.

My question is, should I be using both the Tenjou and Mejiro in the progression? Or should I use either and figure out which one works better?

Also, how significant is the Koma? What's the going rate?

 

[jpcwon]

I usually use all 4 (Bot, Ten, Mej, and Koma). I have heard the same thing you have, where you can either use Tenjou OR Mejiro, but I just enjoy doing the whole shebang...

You're right that Koma is not entirely necessary, but I find that it adds a level of smoothness & keennessto the edge (maybe it's just me, but I do). Plus they're fast & fine, so they're fantastic for doing touch ups....Koma aren't the cheapest thing in the world; I've seen them going for $1 a gram in some cases (and that's when you can find them)...

 

[Gamma]

Generally - I tell people to figure out the first 3 Nagura before adding another variable to the mix.

People have said, in the past - that either Tenjyou or Mejiro should be used.
I think that's taken from Iwasaki's manual actually.
The same manual where he says Koma goes between them or something like that.

Ok - getting away from the obvious - lets say that progression is correct 100% of the time.

How will you know which to use?

The only way to know is to try them in various progressions and exploring their capabilities.
That's the only way you can determine what works best for you, which one is finer/faster/etc.


My base progression incorporates all 4 of those Nagura, sometimes a couple others also.
Someone else will have another path.
There is no recipe - there are no rules. There is only point A and point B.
How you get from A to B is up to you.

 

[Steve56]

O.K., this is a forum and I'm going to stir the pot a little. You shave off two stones, the bevel setter and the finisher. Nothing in between matters because all those marks are erased in finishing.

Cheers, Steve

 

[jpcwon]

O.K., this is a forum and I'm going to stir the pot a little. You shave off two stones, the bevel setter and the finisher. Nothing in between matters because all those marks are erased in finishing.

Cheers, Steve

I always wonder if that's the case, and if I do all this nagura stuff for no reason. I gotta believe it has SOME influence on the edge, no?

 

[buca3152]

Just keep at it as was said here. You have to figure what works and what doesnt. If you had a midrange synthetic, you would be at a closer point and require a little less work to get the edge you want. I do chosera 1,5. I know gamma has said he likes the 1,3. WHen I first started with it I took it up to the chosera 10k and I saw it was dulling, so I adjusted and used techniques the gents on here were very generous in giving. The scope allowed me to see a little about what was going on. Not much but when I saw a well defined bevel with shallower scratch patterns I knew I was onto something. I know you have film, maybe take the blade to 3 um(8k equivalent) and then try the mejiro with a couple slurry refreshes. If it ends up duller, you have to work the slurry more and use less of it. Well thats what worked for me, Im not saying it will work for you. When you get more sharpness or dont lose it with the 3um film and 1 nagura, that means your onto something. This will all build your technique and will allow you to get more experience in slurry breakdown, undercut etc.

 

[Gamma]

Perhaps you shave off two stones - I however do not.
I don't shave off scratch marks on the bevel either. So their presence or absence mean little at the end of the day.

 

[Gamma]

I gotta believe it has SOME influence on the edge, no?

It does - but to know for yourself is important.

If you aren't certain of this, then you have not done enough experimentation.

 

[jpcwon]

It does - but to know for yourself is important.

If you aren't certain of this, then you have not done enough experimentation.

I can certainly agree with that!! I have done a lot, but not nearly enough...I am still learning all the time....I do know that I prefer the edge from, say, a JNAT with full nagura prog. versus an edge that was brought up through 8k on synths then finished on JNAT.... so it's my belief that a whole is the sum of its parts for sure.....

 

[Brooksie967]

I'm so glad I finally got my 141g koma ordered

 

[buca3152]

141 g is too much for 1 man, you must share the wealth my brother!

 

[blackhhawk]

Sorry to be asking so many questions. I'm trying to minimize the time spent on the trial and error if and when possible. I'm also used to the what the Army has drilled into my head - there's a right and wrong way for everything and a manual to tell you how to do it.

Experimentation will continue. After all, isn't this one reason why we love honing/shaving so much?

Back to my original post though, the Koma, where can one of those be had?

 

[Brooksie967]

Mine took me about a month to source. Not easy and not cheap. Keith will eventually sell another I'm sure

 

[Gamma]

There is no manual.
The right ways to do this are the ones that work for you.
The wrong ways are the ones that do not work for you.
But - the only way to know what works - is trial and error; all attempts to circumvent that are futile.

 

[Sejanus]

Everyone is going to have their own way of doing things.. and one person's result may not work for another.. even if it is amazing for that one person.

I personally know that Koma is required for how I like my edge. I however didn't know that until I was able to get one, up until there it was simply a 'I wonder what Koma would do.. I've heard so much about them'.. but I have a couple of Koma that work different than other Koma, so even in Nagura it isn't "Koma = x, therefor x is always the result".

That is where the fun comes in.. if you enjoy that sort of thing.

 

[blackhhawk]

Yeah I get the trial and error, find what works concept. I just have that tendency to seek a "correct" method.

 

[rockviper]

What's working for me is botan, mejiro and tomo progression. It's all I have and seems to be working just fine.

 

[buca3152]

If you want a "correct" method, buy a set of synthetics, you can recipe hone with them. The only stage that isn't predictable is the bevel. After that x amount of strokes after x hone etc.

 

[Steve56]

Hi jpcwon,

Interesting to discuss it. I think that if your finisher has truly erased all the coarser marks then it doesn't matter if it's a synthetic, coticule, Jnat, grit on glass, that came before.

People seem to go from a 1K to a coticule to finish, and Alex has several videos illustrating getting a shaving edge with a fast JNat finisher off a 1k. Yet in discussing this with him, we both feel the edges leave a bit to be desired, maybe a little harsh, "unrefined" whatever your word for it is. So it would seem the intermediates have some effect, but if it isn't related to the scratch pattern which gets erased what is it?

Could be we're convexing the edge a bit, and anecdotal reports would seem to indicate that convexing the bevel a bit smoothes the feeling on skin.

Could be when we go 1k to finisher, we really haven't removed all the coarser scratches that I believe makes for a harsher edge, but I know Alex uses a microscope and if you can't see any coarser scratches, it's hard to argue there's a residual effect.

Honing is an interesting activity for sure.

Cheers, Steve

I always wonder if that's the case, and if I do all this nagura stuff for no reason. I gotta believe it has SOME influence on the edge, no?

 

[Steve56]

Oh, and one obvious reason to use an intermediate grit stone is to put more of the honewear on a cheaper stone than your better/more costly finisher, though my finishers will likely outlast me.

Cheers, Steve