Masculine, Feminine, or Uni-Sex

[The Knize]

Many question whether these terms have any real meaning in general. Do they work as applied to particular scents? I wanted to float the names of certain specific scents and see if folks had particular thoughts on them as to whether masculine, feminine, uni-sex, or favoring one or the other without being exclusively in one category, and in this way exlpore the overall concept. My impression is that the various houses seem to have divergent ideas as to what is feminine and what is masculine!

Clearly this is an area where YMMV and I want to encourage having fun with this one, as well as exploring what the heck this feminine and masculine business may mean as to scents for individual members. Is there any thread that ties together what is a masculine and a feminine scent for individual members? Is the a scent that is the perfect exemplar for a unisex scent?

If others want to explore other scents in this way, perhaps a new thread should be started for them, or not, I am not sure. I serve not command the B&B membership. In particular there any scents that seem particularly hard to figure out in this regard either on or not on this list? Actually, I have intentionally tried to make the list below difficult! Is there a scent that seems particularly masculine or feminine that nevertheless you would like you significant other of the gender opposite to what the scents seems like, to wear?

So what do folks think of these scents below masculine/feminine-wise and why exactly? I hold back my own thoughts to encourage others, although I may chime in from time to time as we go along, if we manage to go along for very long! (Sorry if these are too obscure or too high end. I choose them in part because they are ones that many B&B members seem to have often sampled.) Following each name is my understanding of how the scent house seems to designate the scent. (I could not actually find a current Pen's decription of masculine or feminine, so Pen's is from my memory of what I have read or seen in the past. I assume basenotes is getting its desginations from the companies. C&S is rather subtle.)

Penhaligon "Elixir" (Pen's seems to say masculine as does basenotes, but Perfumed Court in the past said feminine and now says unisex)

Czech & Speake "Oxford & Cambridge" (C&S/basenotes says unisex)

Penhaligon "Castile" (Pen's/basenotes say masculline)

Penhaligon "English Fern" (Pen's/basenotes says unisex)

Czech & Speake "88" (C&S/basenotes says unisex)

sandlewoods in general (but MPG Santal Noble in particular if enough folks have tried it who want to speak up can voice an opinion)

 

[StylinLA]

I haven't tried all of them but of the ones I have tried:

No. 88 could be worn by a woman, I just think very few would wear it.
It's got too much of a masculine vibe in my view.

Sandalwood is pretty much seen as a unisex note, and it makes it into the basenotes of many, many frags. But when it use is very prominent in a scent, it's usually in masculine frags. Last I checked, (Basenotes tabs Santal Noble as a masculine.) I have Santal Noble and it's pretty potent, but I'm having some issues with it. I seem to be a bit anosmic to it. I can barely sense it there, and others have told me it's very much there.

What I notice a lot in this whole unisex debate is that the niche perfumers (Penhaligons, C&S, Lutens, L'Artisan, etc) have more of a tendency to brand their scents as unisex. Their distribution network is more limited and why restrict themselves.

Designer scents are generally more targeted: masculine or feminine. Since they distribute primarily through department stores to the more "average" consumers, they can't afford any blurred lines. Most department stores have very clear cut differences from the men's colognes to the women's perfumes. I'd say the typical man would be very daunted if there was just one fragrance section for both men and women. (I always think of my trips into Lucky Jeans, where the first thing I have to do is pin down which is the "men's" side. And all the Lucky stores keep shifting it around. Is it left side, it it the front only, is it the back only. Cut it out Lucky!)

The fragrance department at Barneys NY has sort of blurred lines, and if you're a novice to frag shopping, you're kind of in the hands of the SAs. In my early frag collecting days, I remember being stunned that an SA had sold me Ambre Sultan which was-- UNISEX!?!?! They do have a clear cut mens section, but if they did sell Pens or C&S, it would be in the "other" section which is right next to mens and a mix of the niche lines like Lutens, Malle, L'Artisan and Le Labo.

In general, I think that though many Penhaligons and C&S scents bill themselves as unisex, they come down more masculine. Lutens and L'Artisan have some scents men can wear, but their overall lines are more feminine.

The sheer number of men in a testosterone laced forum like this one who like most of the Pens is to me evidence that these lines appeals more to men however they classify them.

 

[The Knize]

Thanks, StylinLA, all good points. I think I agree with all. I think we can assume a more sophisticated user group on this board than the average department store frag counter walk up customer, or at least folks following along here would like to be. But you are correct that as an overall concept "unisex" from the makers may be more limited to niche scents. I am not sure that C&S has anything that is labelled masculine. It is either unisex or feminine, and the latter is a bit limited--Dark Rose, Rose, and Mimosa. (At least I think C&S Mimosa is feminine. I would say feminine. I would not necesarily say that Dark Rose is feminine only, though. That is a very dark rose indeed.) Pen's at least according to basenotes seems to label things masculine or feminine, with fewer unisex. I think EF (hard for me to imagine a woman wearing this!), Querecus, and one regular line other that I am blanking on the name, plus more from the the anthology line, desginated unisex, although I would think others from the regulat line labelled masculine would work as unisex.

Anyway, I think the Houses are inconsistent among them and even internally. So I was thinking we have a sophisticated enough group to think about on a scent by scent basis what seems masculine and what seems feminine and why? And more precisely even what seems masculine or feminine, but works as unisex at least sometimes.

That is a shame if you are anosmic to MPG SN! I really like that scent these days. I think I agree that one note sandalwoods or scents that are predominately sandlewood tend to be pegged masculine. I am trying to figure out in my own mind whether I think MPG SN works as unisex. I really think it does. And makes me think that other sandlewoods may be inappropriately pegged as just masculine. I am seem to have mixed feelings about it soo far and in part of "looking for help." Not that I have much of a practical application for the information!

 

[tsmba]

IMO, they're meaningless terms for the most part. I can think of examples at the extreme ends of the spectrum that seem obvious: I cannot imagine a woman wearing Knize Ten, or a man wearing Chanel #5, but of course I mean "man and woman" in the traditional sense. Other than the outliers, that leaves a broad range of scents that are somewhere in the middle and probably their use is a personal choice.

I pretty much ignore marketing descriptions and packaging. I'd never consider what seem to be flowery, perfume-like scents, but there are exceptions. I kind of like C&S "Dark Rose" even though (last I checked) I hadn't seen it called "unisex" anywhere.

 

[kingfisher]

I haven't tried all of these, but I will weigh in on the ones I know:

Oxford and Cambridge: masculine

Castile: unisex

English Fern: masculine


Sandalwood scents: most of these are masculine

 

[theperfectstorm]

If I knew a woman capable of really pulling off the No. 88 I would be named in a dozen restraining orders.

With the exception of Elixir, I think all the ones you named are definitively toward the masculine. Sandalwoods, by definition, can go any way depending on how much and what kind of Sandalwood you use. Real, bad-*** sandalwood, like Harris AS is pretty darned masculine. Sandalwood blends like Floris Santal are pretty basically masculine, while other light sandalwoods, like the Montale are pretty feminine.

 

[The Knize]

Well said re a woman that could wear 88, theperfectstorm. I think I am right there with you. Although, I could also imagine a Goth girl wearing it, and it seeming at least sort of appropriate, without any need for restrainting orders against me. I do not think I am qualified to opine as to what works for Goth and not!

Well-said re sandlewood, too. I cannot generally see a woman wearing say AOS Sandlewood or Tam Dao. But I am with you that not everything that is predominately sandlewood is at all a pure sandlewood. I personally am convinced that would like it if a woman wore MPG SN. And I do not think one has to go as far out on the scale as Montale to find other sandlewoods that would work on a woman. Going by memory, I think Floris Santal or better Floris Sandlewood would work for a woman or some women. Actually, I am thinking that somehow sandlewood's association with masculine may be very cultural. That there is nothing that inherently that makes most sandlewood masculine. I do not know Harris AS Sandlewood. I think supposed that Sandlewoods that are really as much or more other woods, like Tam Dao to me anyway, are pretty darn masculine.

I cannot imagine Pen's EF or any true fern scent working for many women. It is an enduring mystery to me why Pen's would pick this scent as unisex and say Castile as masculine. Castile seems perfectly unisex to me and even toward the feminine. Its middle notes are very floral ans sweet to me.

I would have said that C&S O&C is perfectly unisex, but I am being disabused of that notion, now by both men and women! How is a light lavender and mint gender specific, unless feminine, which I do not think it is? Are others getting more dirtiness out of this one than I am picking up?

I agree with tsmba (hi, T!) that Dark Rose has some appeal as a masculine and yet I have never seen it listed as unisex. To me it has overlap with 88, which to me really is masculine unless there are some very specific applications where it works unisex.

C&S Rose or Pen's E Rose I think work as unisex, but only layered with something else. Or maybe better put, they can be used unisex, but they are a good bit toward the feminine. I may have worn E Rose myself in a pure form, but it seems a bit daring for a guy.

 

[StylinLA]

If I knew a woman capable of really pulling off the No. 88 I would be named in a dozen restraining orders.

You and me both.

Seriously, I think that a good looking woman with chutzpah can wear anything she wants. Nobody is going to tell them "You smell like a guy!" (Unless it's Lilac Vegetal).

There are a fair number of women at Basenotes who seem to focus a lot on some of the more refined male scents.

 

[Featherweight]

The Pens scents: unisex.

Haven't tried the others on that list, although I have tried the roses by C&S. Both unisex in my mind, although Dark Rose more so than Rose.

Masculine-marketed scents seem to focus heavily on having dryer, woodier note structures. Lots of cedar, tobacco, leather, oak/treemoss, etc. Contemporary and unimaginative aquatic scents tend to focus on calone and citrus.

Feminine-marketes scents go with sweet, floral, fruity, and powdery notes.

Depending on the quality of the fragrance and the seriousness of its manufacturer in marketing by gender, these traits can have varying effects. Also, concentration is a factor. Coco by Chanel is my favorite example. The perfume is dense and rich and feminine-smelling. Very much as feminine as No. 5, although with a less traditional and aldehyde-dependent approach. However, the eau de toilette is stark and dry, powdery, a little sweet, with an overall notes structure that creates an illusion of a leather note.

I believe 99.9% of fragrances out there are unisex. The only exceptions are the cheapo drugstore "celebrity" frags, like Liz Taylor's Diamonds and Rubies. Something about their peachy and loudly synthetic nature really says "old lady" and nothing else.

I would add that Kouros and Yatagan are both solely masculine. I just can't imagine them working on a woman.

Although, if that woman were hot enough, I guess it really wouldn't matter.





......

 

[StylinLA]

Although, if that woman were hot enough, I guess it really wouldn't matter.......

Yup. Even Kouros.

 

[Oglethorpe]

Great thread!

To me, it's a MMMV (my mileage may vary). When I smell a fragrance in my head I immediately form an opinion about whether it's masculine or feminine.

Of the named fragrances, I'm only familiar with O&C and 88, and they are both definitively masculine to me.

 

[The Knize]

I am stripping down my original inquiry for discussion purposes!

What is it about C&S O&C that make those of you who think so think it is "masculine"? Oglethorpe and Kingfisher are not the only ones to feel that it si masculine.

I pretty much think it is the epitome of unisex, but i am not afraid to be proved wrong or argued witn.

 

[JaDo]

I believe O&C is unisex, too. In fact, my bottle often winds up amongst my wife's collection of perfumes. She really likes it. I've told her she is welcome to some of my sample of Cuba anytime she wants! Not because I don't like it - I do (as you know The Knize), but because I enjoy the reaction she gives.

 

[joshmpdx]

I believe O&C is unisex, too. In fact, my bottle often winds up amongst my wife's collection of perfumes. She really likes it. I've told her she is welcome to some of my sample of Cuba anytime she wants! Not because I don't like it - I do (as you know The Knize), but because I enjoy the reaction she gives.

Is that a good reaction? i may just see how my little lady likes Cuba, i hadn't thought of it for her. along similar lines she enjoys "Cabaret" by Gres (an inexpensive excellent edt marketed towards women)

 

[JaDo]

Is that a good reaction? i may just see how my little lady likes Cuba, i hadn't thought of it for her. along similar lines she enjoys "Cabaret" by Gres (an inexpensive excellent edt marketed towards women)

It is not a good reaction. She can't stand the stuff. Actually, that's not entirely accurate. I put some on recently, and she hated it. Then, a few hours later, she remarked that "someone smells nice". HA! Busted! She does like it.

 

[joshmpdx]

It is not a good reaction. She can't stand the stuff. Actually, that's not entirely accurate. I put some on recently, and she hated it. Then, a few hours later, she remarked that "someone smells nice". HA! Busted! She does like it.

too bad first impressions are such a deal breaker. Isnt' the thing things in life that take time to learn to appreciate that are the most valuable?!

 

[professorchaos]

too bad first impressions are such a deal breaker. Isnt' the thing things in life that take time to learn to appreciate that are the most valuable?!

Fo' sho. Some of my most enduringly favorite things are those I had to learn to appreciate. Invariably, they altered my tastes and expanded my horizons.

 

[JaDo]

too bad first impressions are such a deal breaker. Isnt' the thing things in life that take time to learn to appreciate that are the most valuable?!

Fo' sho. Some of my most enduringly favorite things are those I had to learn to appreciate. Invariably, they altered my tastes and expanded my horizons.

Absolutely. If I had not taken the time to really appreciate them, I would have missed out on coffee, playing guitar, scotch, Tom Waits, wet shaving, Kouros.....

 

[The Knize]

I believe O&C is unisex, too. In fact, my bottle often winds up amongst my wife's collection of perfumes. She really likes it. I've told her she is welcome to some of my sample of Cuba anytime she wants! Not because I don't like it - I do (as you know The Knize), but because I enjoy the reaction she gives.

<(as you know The Knize)>

Word is bond, James! Word is bond!

I really can't imagine O&C not working for a woman. I wonder if scents like it smell a little different on a guy than on a woman. Even if they don't, I am sure the average persons associations are different when they smell it on a guy that on a woman.

 

[Oglethorpe]

I am stripping down my original inquiry for discussion purposes!

What is it about C&S O&C that make those of you who think so think it is "masculine"? Oglethorpe and Kingfisher are not the only ones to feel that it si masculine.

I pretty much think it is the epitome of unisex, but i am not afraid to be proved wrong or argued witn.

In the nature of my last post, YMMV (MMMV). To you, it may seem unisex, but if I smelled O&C on a woman (the way it smells on me, i.e. body chemistry), I would ask her why she's wearing a man's fragrance.

As for what in particular makes it masculine, I find that it has a particular spiciness, as opposed to a "floweryness" typically attributed to feminine fragrances. When I first smelled O&C I didn't know that it was categorized as a lavender based fragrance. I don't get lavender at all. If it had been markedly lavender, then I might agree that a woman could pull it off.

Hope that helps. It's hard for me to name the specific attribute that, to me, gives it its masculinity.