What would you suggest and how did you make your lapping film setup? Did you buy a piece of tile and put the film all the way around with the different grades of grit. Looking to learn from your experiences and failures. What should I avoid?
Making a lapping film setup for honing razors
- Thread starter gonzo4str8rzrs
- Start date
Went to the home improvement store and bought a piece of tile 12" x 12". I had them cut it for me into 3 pieces. I then use those three pieces with the different film on them. I spray the tile, and the top of the film and use my thumbs to press out any air. I put a piece of electrical tape on the far two corners to keep the film from moving. One piece of advice.... I had to sand down the coarse edges of the tile.
I cut a piece of tile to 3"x14.5". My lapping film comes 9"x 13" that I cut to 3"x 13". Just dampen the tile with soapy water and a misting spray bottle and put the film on. I find the soapy water works, though not as well, for wet dry sandpaper also.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
The 12x12 cut in thirds is a good approach. Me, I buy the 4x12 bullnose edge tiles. For the same price I could get a 12x12 but I like the round edge.
Whatever you do, make absolutely certain that you are getting a flat surface. Ceramic tile is NOT flat. Polished stone usually is. Look at the reflection of the overhead lights. As you turn the tile the reflections should still be straight lines. Heavy glass will do, too. I prefer these setups over a heavy granite lapping plate. I have always felt that best results were to be had from holding the plate loosely in my off hand while honing. When you are honing against an unmoving, unyielding surface, bad stuff can happen. With the honing surface floating in air, it is easy to regulate pressure, and the razor and film will find their own best alignment.
I have grown disillusioned with 12u for bevel setting. 15u works much better. 12u is very slow. When I started, I had a hard time getting a nice edge from .3u film as a finisher. Picopaper(tm) is the big game changer. Once you learn to hone on .3u film over damp paper, you enter a whole new dimension of honing. And don't forget, you can use lather on your finishing film just like on a stone.
For your progression, just avoid more than a 3x jump in grit and you will be fine.
The most common reason for FAIL is debris under the film. The plate and the back of the film must be REALLY clean. No microscopic lint or cat hair or dust, especially at finer grits. Air and water are debris, too. Squeegee all bubbles out from under the film. When you see little black bumps forming on the film, that is debris under the film preventing it from laying flat.
I like to hone several razors in one session. I do all blades on the coarse film, then change film and do all blades on that film, and so on, until the finish. Fewer film changes for more razors.
Normally figure on about a dozen razors can be honed on one piece of film, and three pieces can be cut from one sheet.
Don't get "polishing film" or "polishing paper" or any other tricky misleadingly named crap. If it is not "Lapping Film" then that isn't the right stuff. Also don't get the PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive) backed film. Get the plain film. Some guys do use PSA but the adhesive is a big hassle, and if you leave the protective backing on, there can be issues with it not sticking good to the plate, and there are issues with consistency of thickness. The backing is not made to specific tolerances like the film substrate is. And don't buy half sheets. Buy 8-1/2"x11" or 9"x13" sheets. Not every vendor has every grit. I like Thorlabs but they have a limited selection. However, they throw in free "lab snacks". I just ordered from nanolaptech but getting my order in was like pulling teeth so be patient with the guy and best bet is to call on the actual phone, right from the start. He is terrible about answering emails and starting a big long process and you STILL have to call, in my case twice, or he thinks you aren't a real customer or something. But he has a very good selection and good prices. I used to find film on amazon but that is hit or miss.
Here is some old video. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/usercp.php maybe that will help.
Whatever you do, make absolutely certain that you are getting a flat surface. Ceramic tile is NOT flat. Polished stone usually is. Look at the reflection of the overhead lights. As you turn the tile the reflections should still be straight lines. Heavy glass will do, too. I prefer these setups over a heavy granite lapping plate. I have always felt that best results were to be had from holding the plate loosely in my off hand while honing. When you are honing against an unmoving, unyielding surface, bad stuff can happen. With the honing surface floating in air, it is easy to regulate pressure, and the razor and film will find their own best alignment.
I have grown disillusioned with 12u for bevel setting. 15u works much better. 12u is very slow. When I started, I had a hard time getting a nice edge from .3u film as a finisher. Picopaper(tm) is the big game changer. Once you learn to hone on .3u film over damp paper, you enter a whole new dimension of honing. And don't forget, you can use lather on your finishing film just like on a stone.
For your progression, just avoid more than a 3x jump in grit and you will be fine.
The most common reason for FAIL is debris under the film. The plate and the back of the film must be REALLY clean. No microscopic lint or cat hair or dust, especially at finer grits. Air and water are debris, too. Squeegee all bubbles out from under the film. When you see little black bumps forming on the film, that is debris under the film preventing it from laying flat.
I like to hone several razors in one session. I do all blades on the coarse film, then change film and do all blades on that film, and so on, until the finish. Fewer film changes for more razors.
Normally figure on about a dozen razors can be honed on one piece of film, and three pieces can be cut from one sheet.
Don't get "polishing film" or "polishing paper" or any other tricky misleadingly named crap. If it is not "Lapping Film" then that isn't the right stuff. Also don't get the PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive) backed film. Get the plain film. Some guys do use PSA but the adhesive is a big hassle, and if you leave the protective backing on, there can be issues with it not sticking good to the plate, and there are issues with consistency of thickness. The backing is not made to specific tolerances like the film substrate is. And don't buy half sheets. Buy 8-1/2"x11" or 9"x13" sheets. Not every vendor has every grit. I like Thorlabs but they have a limited selection. However, they throw in free "lab snacks". I just ordered from nanolaptech but getting my order in was like pulling teeth so be patient with the guy and best bet is to call on the actual phone, right from the start. He is terrible about answering emails and starting a big long process and you STILL have to call, in my case twice, or he thinks you aren't a real customer or something. But he has a very good selection and good prices. I used to find film on amazon but that is hit or miss.
Here is some old video. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/usercp.php maybe that will help.
- Thread starter
- #5
Wow slash a vast sharing of knowledge and experience. I am excited to try and get started. How many Gris do yo use? Which jumps do you personally make. Best way to sand or round edges of cut tiles? Thinking about going to a tile supply house for possible scraps.
I had a 'Monumental Masonry Company' (they make gravestones) make me up four blocks of polished Granite in 6 inch by 4 inch by 1 inch thick
Four was actually more than enough but they only cost me £30 in total and fit very well in my hone holder. I went for four because I was originally using the stick-on film, but I've since moved over to the non-adhesive variety. Wetting the polished stone and placing the film and pushing out the excess moisture causes enough adhesion
Two is ideal because it allows for use of the coarse film one one, then some paper on the other to cushion the finer grade film.
I seldom use anything else now, I love the stuff.
Four was actually more than enough but they only cost me £30 in total and fit very well in my hone holder. I went for four because I was originally using the stick-on film, but I've since moved over to the non-adhesive variety. Wetting the polished stone and placing the film and pushing out the excess moisture causes enough adhesion
Two is ideal because it allows for use of the coarse film one one, then some paper on the other to cushion the finer grade film.
I seldom use anything else now, I love the stuff.
You can try my patented mini sharpening kit- a 1K Shapton GlassStone and a set of film.
Use the 1K to set the bevel, then flip the stone over. The glass side makes the perfect base for the film. Just cut the film to size, wet it, and it will stick to the glass. I can't think of a complete setup that takes up less room.
Use the 1K to set the bevel, then flip the stone over. The glass side makes the perfect base for the film. Just cut the film to size, wet it, and it will stick to the glass. I can't think of a complete setup that takes up less room.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
No scraps. It must be a big enough piece. One of the biggest benefits of film is you can have a big wide long honing surface. Don't cripple yourself.
I use 15u, 5u, 3u, 1u, and .3u. Sometimes I use 30u or coarser for bevel setting or edge repair but generally 15u will gitter done. Lots of guys don't bother with the .3u and until you learn the tricks it can give an edge that feels harsh.
Chamfer the edges with sandpaper. Easy Sneezy. Or an angle grinder and then sandpaper.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/283576-Lapping-film-try-it to answer all your questions including the ones you don't know you should be asking.
I use 15u, 5u, 3u, 1u, and .3u. Sometimes I use 30u or coarser for bevel setting or edge repair but generally 15u will gitter done. Lots of guys don't bother with the .3u and until you learn the tricks it can give an edge that feels harsh.
Chamfer the edges with sandpaper. Easy Sneezy. Or an angle grinder and then sandpaper.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/283576-Lapping-film-try-it to answer all your questions including the ones you don't know you should be asking.
- Thread starter
- #10
Love all the great suggestions. I will be building my set up soon then by film. Where is a good place to buy film at great prices? I know you suggested big pieces and cut them to size. Would you still suggest getting a bevel setting stone or staying with the film?
I have used a bevel setting stone (1k Chosera) and the 12u film. I prefer the stone for bevel setting. The film has worked for me but takes a long time - especially on something with chips. From there I use the film.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...-to-start-honing-Here-s-what-you-need-to-know
There's a couple sources in this thread. Best prices I found. I have the $5 Home Depot marble edge tile that slash suggests. 12,5, 3, and 1 micron films. I also have a super cheap harbor freight diamond plate set 200,300,400, and 600 grits that I use to rough-set the bevel (or for edge repairs), then it's fairly quick work on the 12 micron film. Eventually I plan on getting a 1k bevel setter, either diamond plate or maybe the shapton glass stone. I like the idea of using its back for the film. I use 1 micron on the stone then with 1 sheet of paper then 3 sheets of paper. My most recent razor was the first I honed with three sheets and I like the feel of the edge a lot. I am considering some 0.3 micron paper just to try it out but I like the edges I've gotten so far. I got my film from specialized products. 6.5 x 9 inch sheets that I cut in half lengthwise. Very easy to learn and use. I rinse and wipe off the tile before each sheet. I also rinse each sheet. Front and back before placing on the tile. Capillary action from the water will hold it in place while you hone. There's lots of great info in the thread slash linked. Read the whole thing.
There's a couple sources in this thread. Best prices I found. I have the $5 Home Depot marble edge tile that slash suggests. 12,5, 3, and 1 micron films. I also have a super cheap harbor freight diamond plate set 200,300,400, and 600 grits that I use to rough-set the bevel (or for edge repairs), then it's fairly quick work on the 12 micron film. Eventually I plan on getting a 1k bevel setter, either diamond plate or maybe the shapton glass stone. I like the idea of using its back for the film. I use 1 micron on the stone then with 1 sheet of paper then 3 sheets of paper. My most recent razor was the first I honed with three sheets and I like the feel of the edge a lot. I am considering some 0.3 micron paper just to try it out but I like the edges I've gotten so far. I got my film from specialized products. 6.5 x 9 inch sheets that I cut in half lengthwise. Very easy to learn and use. I rinse and wipe off the tile before each sheet. I also rinse each sheet. Front and back before placing on the tile. Capillary action from the water will hold it in place while you hone. There's lots of great info in the thread slash linked. Read the whole thing.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Why so short? Longer stroke (within reason) = better consistency and control. Also faster. I always use a full length piece of film.
Best way to learn honing is on film.
I can only agree with what Slash said about PSA backed film because I bought some of it by accident. I have nonetheless managed to discover the joys of lapping film but by now I have sampled some of the very severe problems associated with it if you do not stick it to a surface but instead use it as non PSA film, that is adhering it to a flat surface via a thin water film. After a while the lapping film and the protective backing sheet separate from each other and when the assembly then dries, the lapping film may buckle probably because the backing sheet contracts when drying. Another problem is when the backing sheet starts to dissolve producing debris which may be difficult to get rid of. So make sure you stay away from the PSA backed film unless you intend to stick the film itself onto a surface.
However, even if I have not tried this I would not recommend this for the following reasons:
1. Part of the greatness of lapping film is that you can so easily switch from one grit to another using the same support which IMO adds to the consistency of the results.
2. It is very difficult to stick a large sticker to a surface in a perfectly flat manner.
3. The film wears out after a while, so if you have stuck the film to the tile, you will most probably have to throw away the whole tile plus lapping film assembly every time this happens.
The other day I was at the hardware store and I was able to find a suitable polished tile with no structure which may not be the nec plus ultra but a significant step up from my current set up. At least here in Germany you can get such sample tiles for free.
However, even if I have not tried this I would not recommend this for the following reasons:
1. Part of the greatness of lapping film is that you can so easily switch from one grit to another using the same support which IMO adds to the consistency of the results.
2. It is very difficult to stick a large sticker to a surface in a perfectly flat manner.
3. The film wears out after a while, so if you have stuck the film to the tile, you will most probably have to throw away the whole tile plus lapping film assembly every time this happens.
The other day I was at the hardware store and I was able to find a suitable polished tile with no structure which may not be the nec plus ultra but a significant step up from my current set up. At least here in Germany you can get such sample tiles for free.
Could u use this setup to lap a jnat to a super smooth shine?
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Acetone quickly dissolves most adhesives. It should work for cleaning a tile used with PSA film.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I would imagine it would work. But if you have film, why mess with a jnat in the first place? Just hone on the film. Super easy, and a great edge.
