Looking for Coti tips...

[mbrossar]

Newbie honer here. Coti's my only stone (at least for now).

I've read that you can get a superb edge off of just a coti. This is my goal, but I'm wondering if it's kind of a Zen spiritual thing that you need to hone for a month straight in a lotus position only taking breaks for prayer and chants before you can achieve it.

Seriously though, I can set a bevel pretty consistently. I can refine the edge to a degree to the point that it shaves arm hair pretty well. I'm not particularly successful with HHTs. After nothing but smooth leather and the coti, I get a smooth shave, but it's not very close. If I go a few laps on a CrOx pasted strop, the edge keens up pretty nice and my shaves get much closer.

I suppose I could just be happy with this and make a pasted strop a part of my routine, but other members have said that I should be able to achieve a superlative edge just on the coti and the pasted strop is not necessary. I've also heard that pasted strops have a detrimental effect on the bevel. Not sure if that's true or an oversensitivity. It seems like there's a lot of love around here for pasted strops. Regardless, any suggestions for taking my edges to the next level?

When I've gone from resetting the bevel, I use the Dilucot method as described on coticule.be. After I can shave arm hair and dilute my slurry, I generally take laps until the blade is undercutting the water/slurry (rather than just pushing it down the hone), then do another ten laps or so. Then I dilute and repeat until I'm undercutting just water, no slurry. As I said, this gets me okay edges. I wouldn't even say they were good until I hit them on a pasted strop. When I'm honing, I'm generally sitting upright with the hone on a flat surface. I hold my razor with two hands to help ensure the blade stays flat and even along the hone, but I am applying no pressure. At least I don't think I am.

Thoughts?

 

[holli4pirating]

http://coticule.be/ is probably the most complete source of tips around.

Personally, I find I get better shaves off finer stones.

 

[professorchaos]

What ^ he said.

 

[mbrossar]

Thanks. Most of what I've been trying has been from coticule.be, so I guess it's just a matter of more practice.

Since I'm a newbie and don't know any better, what do you consider 'finer' stones?

Thanks.

 

[holli4pirating]

First one I followed with was the C12k, then I was gifted an Asagi, then I got a vintage Thurry. I get finer edges off all of them than I do off my coti.

 

[Malacoda]

http://coticule.be/ is probably the most complete source of tips around.

+1 It's a great coticule sight and treasure trove of info. Besides, if you want great tips on using a Coti, you might as well start right at the source (or at least as close as you can geographically get to it).

 

[professorchaos]

Thanks. Most of what I've been trying has been from coticule.be, so I guess it's just a matter of more practice.

Since I'm a newbie and don't know any better, what do you consider 'finer' stones?

Thanks.

To help ease yourself over the hump, you could consider following the Coticule with a pasted strop. Effective and easy to use. It took me a loooooooooong time to be able get comparably sharp edges off of hones. I still use pastes from time to time.

 

[pcb01]

Try the Unicot procedure. Bart himself uses the Dilucot mostly, but feels the Unicot is simpler to get started with. I get great edges with it, about 20 minutes work, although I find a few blades that aren't happy with it.

 

[Bart]

Firstly: nothing wrong with pasted strops. There are many options, CrO being one that works the best for the widest variety of beards. There's nothing detrimental about it. It just slowly turns the bevel in an arc shaped one. When the arc becomes too round, the pasted strop is no longer able to "revive" the edge with a simple touch-up. That is why you have the Coticule. (or other hones) It might be 6 months of shaving before it happens, but eventually you'll find yourself working on the hone to make the bevel flat again. After that, you can get by with doing regular touch-ups on the pasted strop again. Nothing wrong with it, and in experienced hands, such a setup delivers edges that are hard to beat.

But yes, you can learn to acquire the same without CrO, and you will likely find that you'll need a less frequent touch-up regime, as the edges of a hone have better longevity. (at least, on my beard they do).

I often refer to something I call the "Coticule keenness gap" between the keenness that can be attained from use with slurry and the keenness required to really unleash the magic of these hones when used with only water.
From what I read in your post, your results off the Coticule end up near the border of that gap, at the point were you must search and find that leap of extra keenness.
Right now, you make that leap with the pasted strop. If it's a flat balsa strop, you can still finish on the Coticule with water, and find out which of both finishes you prefer.
You can also make the leap by applying a layer of tape and take advantage of the keenness boost that a rapidly forming secondary bevel offers. The optimized Coticule procedure for that is called Unicot. You can also use a high grit synthetic hone to make the progress, and again, compare that one's finish with what your Coticule provides with just water on top. Thirdly you can practice to master the Dilution strategy, which tries to sneak over a proverbial small rope that bridges the gap, by slowly and precisely diluting the slurry to plain water, one or two drops per 10 or 20 strokes, and some extra drops when needed to keep the slurry from going backwards. If the Zen-like challenge of that approach annoys you, you might be better off with one of the other strategies.
There are a number of other excellent hones mentioned. I've only once tried an Escher. I have a Nakayma that delivers good edges. I have a Chosera 10K that delivers good edges. I have used CrO in the fashion you describe for over a year on most of the razors I honed (and found those the best edges I could get at that time). I have systematically tested over 50 Coticules, honing and test shaving a minimum of 3 razors on each one, and much more on several of them. There has been not one Coticule that was not capable of matching the keenness I can get off each of the aforementioned hones. Edges that you could have stropped with CrO without finding any further improvement.
I have never advocated that the edges of Coticules are supposed to be better than those of other finishing hones. (It's all preference) Nor do I claim that it is the easiest hone out there, though I don't think that your excellent CotiCrox edges are that hard to reach.

There are no real tips, other than that there's no substitute for practice and experience.

Best regards,
Bart.

 

[mbrossar]

Thanks all for your replies. I was under the impression that pastes were detrimental to your edge and that one would be better off to get their final edge off a stone. It is nice to hear that this is not necessarily the case.

Also, thanks specifically to Bart. It sounds like one of my problems is adding water too quickly. I've been adding water to thin my slurry at about ¼ to ½ a teaspoon at a time when it sounds like I should be adding less, more like just a few drops. This gives me a new direction to pursue.

What a great forum this is!

 

[Ru4scuba?]

Firstly: nothing wrong with pasted strops. There are many options, CrO being one that works the best for the widest variety of beards. There's nothing detrimental about it. It just slowly turns the bevel in an arc shaped one. When the arc becomes too round, the pasted strop is no longer able to "revive" the edge with a simple touch-up. That is why you have the Coticule. (or other hones) It might be 6 months of shaving before it happens, but eventually you'll find yourself working on the hone to make the bevel flat again. After that, you can get by with doing regular touch-ups on the pasted strop again. Nothing wrong with it, and in experienced hands, such a setup delivers edges that are hard to beat.

But yes, you can learn to acquire the same without CrO, and you will likely find that you'll need a less frequent touch-up regime, as the edges of a hone have better longevity. (at least, on my beard they do).

I often refer to something I call the "Coticule keenness gap" between the keenness that can be attained from use with slurry and the keenness required to really unleash the magic of these hones when used with only water.
From what I read in your post, your results off the Coticule end up near the border of that gap, at the point were you must search and find that leap of extra keenness.
Right now, you make that leap with the pasted strop. If it's a flat balsa strop, you can still finish on the Coticule with water, and find out which of both finishes you prefer.
You can also make the leap by applying a layer of tape and take advantage of the keenness boost that a rapidly forming secondary bevel offers. The optimized Coticule procedure for that is called Unicot. You can also use a high grit synthetic hone to make the progress, and again, compare that one's finish with what your Coticule provides with just water on top. Thirdly you can practice to master the Dilution strategy, which tries to sneak over a proverbial small rope that bridges the gap, by slowly and precisely diluting the slurry to plain water, one or two drops per 10 or 20 strokes, and some extra drops when needed to keep the slurry from going backwards. If the Zen-like challenge of that approach annoys you, you might be better off with one of the other strategies.
There are a number of other excellent hones mentioned. I've only once tried an Escher. I have a Nakayma that delivers good edges. I have a Chosera 10K that delivers good edges. I have used CrO in the fashion you describe for over a year on most of the razors I honed (and found those the best edges I could get at that time). I have systematically tested over 50 Coticules, honing and test shaving a minimum of 3 razors on each one, and much more on several of them. There has been not one Coticule that was not capable of matching the keenness I can get off each of the aforementioned hones. Edges that you could have stropped with CrO without finding any further improvement.
I have never advocated that the edges of Coticules are supposed to be better than those of other finishing hones. (It's all preference) Nor do I claim that it is the easiest hone out there, though I don't think that your excellent CotiCrox edges are that hard to reach.

There are no real tips, other than that there's no substitute for practice and experience.

Best regards,
Bart.

Thanks for this Bart....thinking about getting a Coti as my first "true" hone at some point besides my Barbers...posts like this help the decision process!

 

[danjared]

then I was gifted an Asagi

I should find out who your friends are.