Jnat - first impressions

[MarkO]

Hi all,

So here I have my newly acquired and newly 'sealed' Jnat, a Ozuku Asagi L5+. It looks very beautiful on the underside top also is pleasing to look at.

I got this stone from my friend Gary Haywood (cheers pal) so far I am very very surprised at how easy this stone gives fantastic results (and that was just the tomo).

I am mainly a coticule guy but this stone so far I would say I have managed to match the smoothness of my coti + just a little more 'zip'. The resulting shave was faultless with zero irritation, redness etc. I'm not saying I will be giving up my coti's (they have a special place in my heart) but so far very very happy with this stone.

I do have the set of Naguras too, but really I'm thinking...is there really a need for all of them? maybe the Botan deffo especially if coming off a 1k, but the others.....I will have to see and experiment more with them.

Btw this first outing was with my DD special number 1 dulled on glass.

Thanks all

Regards

Mark

 

[Gamma]

Need is a funny word here.
Some like to use Botan after 1k, others 5-8k.
Me - I go either way. Depends on what I'm doing.
Mejiro and Tenjou are nice Nagura to work with too - they allow a greater level or refinement than Botan.
Whether or not any or all of that play into what you develop into 'your' progession is unknown.
Best thing to do is experiment with them, push the slurry from each as far as you can to see what you get.
I find that using all of them, plus Koma, has a very special effect on the steel and the resulting edge.
Alex described it once as 'healing' the steel - and if I never learn anything else about honing that one tidbit will go a looooong way.
But - enough about that for now, it really is a topic for a different thread.
Bottom line - not everyone wants the level of Zen that can be acheived from doing a full Nagura progression.
There are many factors to weigh in - all of which are valid if the user is getting the results they want.

Its really a personal choice kinda thing.
Congrats on the stone! Nice score.

 

[jpcwon]

Excellent to hear, Mark! I too have been a coticule guy since I started honing (have way too many of them atm!!), and have only recently started honing on JNAT. I have found that using a JNAT can be a bit confusing at first (with all the nagura to remember), but once you figure out what's what then they're actually very straightforward. I began using my Shoubudani with just the Tomo after coticule (as a finisher), and slowly but surely I started experimenting with the various nagura. Once you start to get an idea of how each nagura performs and how the slurry breaks down (comes with experience), you can then bring your edge from bevel set to final finish using Botan, Tenjyou, Mejiro and Tomo...

I'm no expert & am still technically a JNAT newb, but if you have any questions feel free to ask...

 

[Brooksie967]

Depending on who you talk to, the level of refinement from each nagura is actually the same. A very well respected member here has done multiple tests and found that botan, tenjoyu, mejiro, etc, all break down to the same level of refinement based off your base stone.

 

[ANeat]

Good to hear Mark, Your experience mirrors mine in many ways. I personally enjoy going thru the Nagura progression but I still have to double check which one is next LOL. Still may track down a Koma if I can but Im really satisfied with the 3 I have now

 

[buca3152]

I recently got a jnat from JNS and have been using it a bit. The mejiro is the finer of the 3 . Since I am using it at least at the moment as a finisher shoukdnt I be using that one only? I got a decent shave off of the botan the other day. Little scratchy but definitely sharp enough and smooth enough. Not up to what ive been getting off my coti/bbw. and not up to what i get with film. It felt like a shave off the 8k norton.

 

[Brooksie967]

I recently got a jnat from JNS and have been using it a bit. The mejiro is the finer of the 3 . Since I am using it at least at the moment as a finisher shoukdnt I be using that one only? I got a decent shave off of the botan the other day. Little scratchy but definitely sharp enough and smooth enough. Not up to what ive been getting off my coti/bbw. and not up to what i get with film. It felt like a shave off the 8k norton.

The nagura starts off finer but will break down to the same level.

 

[buca3152]

But if the nagura is coarser, the begining use of the nagura on the slurry will result in a rougher bevel then right? If I take a blade from chosera 1k, norton 4/8 naniwa 12, then just use the jnat as a finisher wouldnt using the finest nagura make sense then? Im new to naturals so pardon my ignorance LOL. I have done a few botan slurry . Half strokes and circles sets of 30. As the slurry darkens, I dilute with drops of water from my fimgertips. Untill Im at clear water and 20 x strokes on water. My results have been getting better but no killer edge yet. My best edge yet was my first, synthetic progression then finish on water on the jnat. 20 X strokes.

 

[Brooksie967]

Think of nagura like this: botan starts with a particle size of 10. To get that to break down to 1, takes a lot longer than breaking down a koma that starts at a 3. But the nagura that starts out at a 3 won't have as much abrasive power in the beginning. The numbers are irrelevant but you get the point.

The coarser the nagura is to begin with, the heavier the work can be done on the bevel. BUT, from my experience as well as others finding the same thing, if you work the slurry long enough, they all break down to the same level which is determined by the base stone/pressure used/weight of the blade.

I find that using the nagura progression really helps take the guess work out of this. Going through your progression, starting with the coarsest, ending to your finest tomo, gives you assurance that you are really getting the refinement that is required without simply wondering if you've broken down the botan (initial) slurry to the maximum potential.

 

[Gamma]

I recently got a jnat from JNS and have been using it a bit. The mejiro is the finer of the 3 . Since I am using it at least at the moment as a finisher shoukdnt I be using that one only? I got a decent shave off of the botan the other day. Little scratchy but definitely sharp enough and smooth enough. Not up to what ive been getting off my coti/bbw. and not up to what i get with film. It felt like a shave off the 8k norton.

It sounds like your on the right track to sorting out your progression. Something to consider doing; try shaving off off a maxed out effort on each Nagura.
In other words - set bevel and then go to Botan slurry - run the slurry as long as possible and then shave.
Then - reset bevel and follow with Botan to max, then maxed out Tenjou Slurry and then shave.
And so on. That helps to get an idea about each stone.

But if the nagura is coarser, the begining use of the nagura on the slurry will result in a rougher bevel then right? If I take a blade from chosera 1k, norton 4/8 naniwa 12, then just use the jnat as a finisher wouldnt using the finest nagura make sense then? Im new to naturals so pardon my ignorance LOL. I have done a few botan slurry . Half strokes and circles sets of 30. As the slurry darkens, I dilute with drops of water from my fimgertips. Untill Im at clear water and 20 x strokes on water. My results have been getting better but no killer edge yet. My best edge yet was my first, synthetic progression then finish on water on the jnat. 20 X strokes.

Applying logic is a good move. You're on the right track.
couple points

1 - forget how 'rough' the bevel is. You don't shave with the bevel. Jnats leave a haze not seen from synthetic stones quite often.
1b - removing scratchmarks is part of the story but doing so is not indicative of being ready to move forward.
2 - don't count laps/circles. It's futile. Hone until the visual, audible, and tactile indicators tell you that you are done at that stage.


Botan is most coarse, and like all Nagura/Natural stones - they come in varying densities and hardnesses.
You can't qualify one single Botan by name alone, let alone all Botan.

Tenjou/Mejiro are mid-zone - have the same type of variables as Botan.
Some Tenjou are sandy, others not. Mejiro can have sand, but it's rare.
Botan will have sand in the layer for sure, but it doesn't always wind up in each piece.

Not all Tenjou are less fine than Mejiro - not all Mejiro are more fine than all Tenjou.

Not all Mikawa Nagura cut at the same speed, break down the same way, or deliver the same finish to an edge.
For example - some Tenjou create slurry that breaks down fast, others not so much.
Some Nagura create slurry that dies out quickly - others make slurry that seems to go forever.

IF you have a set of 3 = Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro - that are known to be coarsest, middle coarse/fine, and fine (in that order);

The Slurry from Botan will get you an edge you can shave with but you will probably not be so very happy with it.
The Tenjou will take you a bit further - and the Mejiro even further.
How far you can go will depend on your skill and the quality of the Nagura.
Not all honers or Nagura are created equal... testing and pushing limits are part of the game here - for both man and stone.



So you are correct with your logic - if you're going to touch up a blade, or just finish on the awase after a synthetic progression, then Mejiro would be the logical choice.
That is - if you are going to start the 'finish' on Mikawa nagura.

But - to follow a 12k (and I have to assume the edge was done 100% to that point) passing over the Mikawa Nagura andstarting on Tomo Nagura might be a better choice to start off with. If you like that edge, then try going 12k, Mejiro, then Tomo.

In any or all cases, following with water-only laps would be the very last thing.


I use synths often - if I am going to switch to Jnat during a synthetic progression, I stop at 5-8k.
I sold my higher grit synths a long time ago - I found that 5-8k put the conidition of the edge where I wanted it to be prior to hitting the Nagura slurry.

So I might suggest trying to jump from the 4k or 8k to the Nagura to see how that treats you.

 

[buca3152]

It sounds like your on the right track to sorting out your progression. Something to consider doing; try shaving off off a maxed out effort on each Nagura.
In other words - set bevel and then go to Botan slurry - run the slurry as long as possible and then shave.
Then - reset bevel and follow with Botan to max, then maxed out Tenjou Slurry and then shave.
And so on. That helps to get an idea about each stone.




Applying logic is a good move. You're on the right track.
couple points

1 - forget how 'rough' the bevel is. You don't shave with the bevel. Jnats leave a haze not seen from synthetic stones quite often.
1b - removing scratchmarks is part of the story but doing so is not indicative of being ready to move forward.
2 - don't count laps/circles. It's futile. Hone until the visual, audible, and tactile indicators tell you that you are done at that stage.


Botan is most coarse, and like all Nagura/Natural stones - they come in varying densities and hardnesses.
You can't qualify one single Botan by name alone, let alone all Botan.

Tenjou/Mejiro are mid-zone - have the same type of variables as Botan.
Some Tenjou are sandy, others not. Mejiro can have sand, but it's rare.
Botan will have sand in the layer for sure, but it doesn't always wind up in each piece.

Not all Tenjou are less fine than Mejiro - not all Mejiro are more fine than all Tenjou.

Not all Mikawa Nagura cut at the same speed, break down the same way, or deliver the same finish to an edge.
For example - some Tenjou create slurry that breaks down fast, others not so much.
Some Nagura create slurry that dies out quickly - others make slurry that seems to go forever.

IF you have a set of 3 = Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro - that are known to be coarsest, middle coarse/fine, and fine (in that order);

The Slurry from Botan will get you an edge you can shave with but you will probably not be so very happy with it.
The Tenjou will take you a bit further - and the Mejiro even further.
How far you can go will depend on your skill and the quality of the Nagura.
Not all honers or Nagura are created equal... testing and pushing limits are part of the game here - for both man and stone.



So you are correct with your logic - if you're going to touch up a blade, or just finish on the awase after a synthetic progression, then Mejiro would be the logical choice.
That is - if you are going to start the 'finish' on Mikawa nagura.

But - to follow a 12k (and I have to assume the edge was done 100% to that point) passing over the Mikawa Nagura andstarting on Tomo Nagura might be a better choice to start off with. If you like that edge, then try going 12k, Mejiro, then Tomo.

In any or all cases, following with water-only laps would be the very last thing.


I use synths often - if I am going to switch to Jnat during a synthetic progression, I stop at 5-8k.
I sold my higher grit synths a long time ago - I found that 5-8k put the conidition of the edge where I wanted it to be prior to hitting the Nagura slurry.

So I might suggest trying to jump from the 4k or 8k to the Nagura to see how that treats you.

That was a very clear explanation. I will continue experimenting. Next blade I will finish on 4k and then up from there. Etc. Thats what they say when you need to learn the stone as they are all different. However it seems that any sort of lap or strokes doesnt guarantee anything until you know how many on this particular stone with these particular naguras. And if I changed the naguras even to the same types, you would have to figure them all out again. Thanks again. I will keep at it.

 

[Shave Ready]

...I have managed to match the smoothness of my coti + just a little more 'zip'.

Smoothness of the coti + just a little more 'zip'. I like that description - matches my coti/JNAT (end-user) experience perfectly!

 

[MarkO]

Hi all ,

Great replies and more info on the Nagura stones. Thanks.

Today I have been experimenting with them, I have honed 2 razors, the first was 1 k chosera then Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro and tomo - 100 laps on kangaroo leather. HHT 4

the second razor was 1k chosera, Botan then Tomo - 10 linen/100 kangaroo. HHT 5
I noticed better HHT on the second razor so I restropped the first but included linen and now HHT is as good as the second.

Obviously the real test will be the shave.

I will continue to explore these stones

 

[Gamma]

Excellent report. Keep working at it, see where the rabbit hole takes you!