Japanese Knives - Basic grades of makers ?

[Rapier]

Hello all,

I am looking once again for the wisdom of my colleagues. With regards to Japanese knives; if we ignore the differences on honyaki vs kasumi vs hongasumi, how would you group/order the makers listed at the bottom ?

Those of you who know enough to make this grading somewhat possible: I am well aware this can be as difficult as BMWvAUDIvMB or PorscheVsFerrari, or even worst grading shaving soaps ... but there is ALWAYS some basic order amongst the mess and chaos of it all. As a newcomer to Japanese cooking knives, it is very chaotic to me and maybe to others. Therefore, it would be greatly appreciated if some attempt at grouping and/or characterising the makers were possible. Even a single word on each one ? Please educate me (us).

Thanks,

Mizuno Tanrenjo
Masamoto
Aritsugu
Monzaburo
Ikkanshi Tadatuna
Shigefusa
Yoshikane
Ikenami Hamono
Heiji
Suisin
Konosuke

 

[JBroida]

there are a lot of different kinds of "makers" in Japan... there are those who actually forge, sharpen, and complete the entire product in-house, those who just forge, those who just sharpen, those who just make handles and sayas, and those who organize forgers, sharpeners, and handle makers to make a complete product... there are also those who dont make anything but have original brands... the key to ranking "makers" is figuring out who does what...
of your list, the ones i personally like the most (though not necessarily in this order) are shigefusa, heiji, yoshikane, suisin and konosuke

there are a lot of other makers that people are missing out on here though... what i've found is that the best makers are super strict about who they want to sell to, so you see less of their products outside of Japan

Also, its impossible to take the kasumi, honkasumi, etc. variable out of the question, because in many of the above cases, the actual craftsmen are likely different for each type of knife

 

[Jim]

Thanks Jon.

 

[Rapier]

Thank you for your response Jon. I guess my question is poorly worded and or poorly designed.

It is a world for which I have little to no wisdom, but a bunch of knowledge. What I mean by this is that I have read and researched much over the years, both in print and on the internet with regards to Nihonto (blades forged for katana and/or in the same style but for other implements). The history for Nihonto is FAR reaching and the number of artisans over the last 800 years absolutely astounding ... However, there is such a thing as a grading system for them, in fact multiple rating systems over many years and many texts by masters. These ratings are used by the collector and considered to be the gospel of the masters, unlike north-american rating systems that we often question because of possible pay-offs (wine ratings) and/or bias, this is something a Jp master would never do for fear of losing face and all reputation. We won't even mention the government's involvement with the Ministry of Education ratings ... and some living artisans being classified as living cultural heritage.

The knowledge of the process and history of Nihonto can be acquired, but acquiring the "wisdom" for this shear breadth of knowledge is nearly impossible for one person: the feel of each blade, the touch, the weight, etc ... However, this wisdom can be imparted to the collector by the use of ratings from masters: I may know the history of two sword-smiths but cannot grade them from each other, but with the use of master's ratings I can gain that "wisdom." One might argue that it is how it feels/looks to you that is important, just as in wine/cars and even razors. But in Nihonto, no-one will put these blades to their original intended use and only the wisdom of others can truly help you appreciate the inherent beauty of what you have purchased. This is very similar to diamonds, many of you have bought them, many of you have paid exorbitant amounts for an IF instead of a VSI, but 99% of us cannot tell the difference with our untrained eyes.

My point is, in many aspects of Jp culture that involves quality and/or craftsmanship and/or capacity, things are rated and graded according to both their completed result and the process. I am only looking for some vague idea of the same thing for kitchen knives. I don't consider the final answer of this thread to be the end all be all but I do consider that many of you have a MUCH greater wealth of knowledge than I on the subject. No rating system is perfect, and some rivalries NEVER result in a winner, because of the many different angles which must be considered, just as Jon points out. But there is always some grouping/rating/ordering that is possible.

In this case however, even market price has not been useful, same blades (exact same grade, style, steel, grind, etc ...) by different vendors are all sold at different prices and the prices vary differently from artisan to artisan at each store: Mizuno>Masamoto at one, then the opposite. I also do not feel that going for the knives made at forges/locations/companies that previously featured respected masters for swords would be too bright on my behalf. Hence the question. I cannot "handle" each of these blades, I cannot find an owner of each one that I trust to be unbiased and that has had MANY others to compare to, I can't even find a blade/knife forum where this has been done without useless/unintelligent/emotional debate. In other words, I am lost but quite ready to buy ...

 

[JBroida]

I know its a difficult scene to navigate... there are no ratings for knife makers, unlike sword makers, and i would say the majority of people in the US dont really understand the knife scene in Japan... many people think they know how makes their knives, but what i have found is that more often than not, they are wrong. I've spent a lot of time learning about this system and meeting the "makers" and the makers (the actual craftsmen)... i've also tested knives from many of these people. The fact is that some craftemen are better than others, but it gets tricky when many people are involved in the making of a knife (like knives from sakai)... for example, you may have a great blacksmith, but only a so-so sharpener and end up with only a so-so knife.

I've always been of the mindset that there is not single best knife, but rather just the knives that are the right fit for each person, task, etc. I'd be happy to speak with you more about this, but i'm not sure that this is the most appropriate place for me to do so, as its kind of my business. For general questions that dont pertain to things that i sell directly, i'll be happy to answer here so that it can be a resource for other interested members. But for specific questions about brands and so on, feel free to e-mail me or send me a PM.

-Jon

 

[Rapier]

I can only agree with your response as it reflects both the chaos that I find myself in, as well as the irregularities of the knowledge base (in english or french) on Japanese knives on the internet. I will finish my general query here such that we can close this thread, hopefully some of the comments I make on different knife types here will be of some use to others. I appreciate your thoughts on moving this discussion to a more private setting as it is becoming business oriented. I will add a bit more detail, but would love to have a chance to speak with you. I am however, presently traveling and will return to Montreal in 3 days.

My basic needs are very likely similar to all of those who transition to the Japanese knives, I wish to replace the usual trusty do-everything "chef's knife," in my case from Wusthof. I do not wish to go the route of the european influenced styles of blades: the Santoku and the Wa Gyuto. Having said this, it is difficult to adapt the Japanese blades to mostly european recipes, and my cooking repertoire is almost entirely french/italian.

For vegetables, the Usuba/Nakiri is a natural, no issues there ... I would prefer one with a flat bladed style as I mostly "chop" my vegetables and do not spend much time carving/decorating them. A single bevel blade would also be preferred. I would purchase a Petty for mushrooms/hot peppers/herbs/peeling. This completes the vegetables.

For meat however, it is more difficult; the true "longblades" (Yanagiba/Takohiki) are better suited to fish/sushi, however I need a blade to clean or prep the wild red meat that I hunt: remove tendon, connective tissue, slice steaks from large cuts, hand cut tartar/cubes, etc ... I would also like to have a blade to slice my roasts, a Takohiki would look amazing ... yes, I am basing that decision on looks ;-) The Deba may not be suited to my other "meat uses", however a blade of enough heft might do the trick.

I also need a blade that can handle small birds (incl bones), but I believe this will have to be done with a cleaver, something my chinese girlfriend will be very happy to have.

I will be USING these frequently as I cook often but also work >25 days / month, so the kitchen can become a disaster as I rush through recipes at quite a pace ;-) and my counters are made of quartz ... for these reasons, I have no interest in ruining a beautiful Honyaki blade and would rather find a Kasumi/Hongasumi from an excellent smith. I have no qualms about purchasing from many different artisans to complete the set, but I have no knowledge to base these decisions on.

Thanks again Jon !

 

[eto]

Hello F,

Here are some Japanese Knives and there usage.
http://korin.com/Learn/About-Japanese-Knives
http://korin.com/Learn/Western-Knives

Hope this helps some. But for many of the tasks you mention a Gyuto can cover a lot of work.

Happy Cooking.

 

[Rapier]

Hehe, Jon is actually from JKI and I'm pretty sure he doesn't need to ask the questions

"I" am the lost soul. The "usage" of each knife is a function of its historical evolution whithin Japanese kitchens. Their shape and intended function is therefore defined by the terms set forth by Japanese cooking. I am well aware of these intended uses even down to the Gishiki and its use with Moribashi.

It's quite another task to select the right knives for use in a european kitchen ... I don't make sushi, carve blowfish, run emperor's ceremonies, or gut eels ;-) And as much as the Deba may be fine for butchering some meat, it does have limitations. The Usuba however is perfectly suited for chopping. That leaves the need for a slicing/serving knife with meat, and a knife for the preparation of birds/rabbits and other meats that include bones. For the heavy work I will get a cleaver, for the serving and slicing of roasts I think I will look to Fontenille Pataud to get a matching serving set anyway ;-)

In the end, I began reading some more after my last post and I think it will be Petty/Usuba/Deba/Cleaver for me in Kasumi/Hongasumi.

 

[eto]

Hehe, Jon is actually from JKI and I'm pretty sure he doesn't need to ask the questions

Fixed that. Sorry



I understand your way of cooking. I worked professionally in kitchens for some time. They where all based around French and european technic. I used all Japanese knives like many professional chef these days do.

If you don't go the way of the sword at least consider this one for breaking down fowl and other cuts of meat. Works like a charm.

http://korin.com/Molybdenum-Hankotsu

 

[tsmba]

Chad Ward's "An Edge in the Kitchen" is a good source, as is his blog: chadwrites.com

Also check out japanesechefknives.com and knifemerchant.com.....I have used both of these sources and they are great!

 

[ouch]

I think the differences between brands is somewhat overblown. The beauty of Japanese knives is how they get better and better with repeated sharpenings. A great edge is made by the end user as much as it is by the factory. There are lots of great brands, and you can probably get a gem or a dud from any of them. If they give you a nice hunk of steel, keep it flat and straight, you're pretty much there. The rest is just sharpening it to your heart's content. Of course, there are different preferences in handles, balance, thickness, etc, so you'll have to decide what you like, preferably by holding one in person- there's really no substitute for that.

 

[JBroida]

I think the differences between brands is somewhat overblown. The beauty of Japanese knives is how they get better and better with repeated sharpenings. A great edge is made by the end user as much as it is by the factory. There are lots of great brands, and you can probably get a gem or a dud from any of them. If they give you a nice hunk of steel, keep it flat and straight, you're pretty much there. The rest is just sharpening it to your heart's content. Of course, there are different preferences in handles, balance, thickness, etc, so you'll have to decide what you like, preferably by holding one in person- there's really no substitute for that.

In some ways i agree and in others i do not. I think that you are right that the difference between brands can be overblown... you'd be surprised at how often they are using the same makers. But the differences between makers are much greater than you might think. The differences are noticeable, from the heat treatment to the quality of the shaping/initial sharpening of the blade (which is something that cant be fixed at home... especially for single bevel knives... this is setting the ura/back side, forming the shinogi line, etc). Even how straight the blade stays, and how easy it is to straighten, will be different from maker to maker. At this point, i've spent enough time fixing and sharpening blades from different craftsmen to be sure about this (even when sometimes the brands are different but the craftsmen are the same).

Not all problems can just be fixed by sharpening more until you have the knife how you want it. Some problems cant be fixed without a huge whetstone wheel and years of experience (especially things involving the initial sharpening of the backside of single bevel knives). Also, over time, high and low spots from the initial sharpening (which can happen in all knives, but generally significantly less when coming from one of the top-level sharpeners), will make a difference in the performance of the blade and one's ability to sharpen it over time.