Ivory, and notes of interest with regards to shaving.

[Unknownsoldier]

Hi Guys,

I am not a lawyer, but I am trying to give you some info to stop you losing valuable items.... always check with a legal professional or your C&E first.

Just added a post to a marketplace thread and while reading up on it, I found something interesting that affects all those who wish to still have ivory scales or brush handles etc.

The term pre-ban it seems is a con, no Ivory unless exceptions are made under CITES is legal (i.e. those from nAmibia and other places taking Ivory humanely to prevent hunters killing elephants etc.), whether "pre-ban" or not. The term is a con, simple. Under cites all trade in Ivory is banned unless it has antique provenance asessed by an expert, which is costly and in many cases worth more than the item. OR it has an exemption certificate from them and a government body.

International sales and movement of Ivory is covered by the CITES regulation, and the "antique" getaround is a complicated area. CITES regualtions uses this, as an example:

"The public and indeed antique dealers do not understand that antique
items such as snooker balls which have recently been re-carved into walking stick handles for example no longer qualify under the antiques derogation."

http://www.cites.org/common/cop/13/inf/E13i-46.pdf

So if you buy a snooker ball and have it turned, into a handle for your shaving brush, technically you are breaking international law, but it is likely only to be enacted upon, if you transport it, ship it, sell it or give it to anyone else, as although the item was antique to begin with you have now changed it and the antique getout on longer applies. A handy piece of info if you are turning a handle for someone else, as you technically it seems ould be enabling a breaking of law.

THe UK revenue and Customs service gives this advice:

"Items to avoid (where international trade is prohibited)

These include but are not limited to the following:

Elephant ivory

International trade in ivory is illegal, but ivory carvings and jewellery are still offered to tourists, particularly in Africa and Asia. There are some exceptions to the ban which relate to Botswana, Namibia, South Africa and Zimbabwe because they have healthy elephant populations. You should check with Animal Health if you are travelling to one of these countries."

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/downloadFile?contentID=HMCE_CL_001734

So basically don't risk it.

There is plenty of other info out there just so you know

So if you want an ivory set of scales on your ravor or a handle for your brush, it may be a lot of red tape to do it legally, or it may be impossible to do legally at all.

Tom

THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL/FLAMING THREAD, IF IT GETS SO PLEASE CLOSE IT. THIS IS FOR INFO ONLY.

 

[Patriot45]

Thanks for the info!

 

[Unknownsoldier]

Thanks for the info!

No worries Glad to help.

Tom

 

[goby]

I believe the term "pre-ban" deals with transactions within the United States and is not related to international law.

Good news though.... Warthog ivory is legal!

 

[LinuxMintyFresh]

I was pondering this very topic last night.

 

[orchestrion]

Interesting bit of information. I hope I'm not the only one who thought of Ivory soap when reading the thread title.

 

[Unknownsoldier]

I believe the term "pre-ban" deals with transactions within the United States and is not related to international law.

Good news though.... Warthog ivory is legal!

Well it does and it doesn't, as said the term pre-ban is misnomer, it deals with when it was taken but seemingly has no relationship to legality of sale. It's a complicated subject....................

Tom

 

[Thebigspendur]

Most areas of the world do not recognize the term pre-ban, that is correct. A few select countries including the U.S does and you can import pre-ban ivory into the U.S. The kicker is if you mark your customs dec as Ivory the item will be held by fish and wildlife and you have to prove to their satisfaction it is pre-ban. Current production Ivory is allowed to be imported only when they have legal culling of heards in a couple of countries and basically it's the same story you need loads of documentation and can expect a long wait. I worked for Immigration and Custom's Enforcement and years ago the custom's house in NYC (before it was destroyed during 9/11) was lined with seized Ivory artifacts many priceless. In actuality Pre ban really is garbage. Most is illegally traded especially in the far east and smuggled into countries.

Of course this applies to Elephant and Narwhale. Mamouth and hippo and walrus and elk are totally legal.

 

[Unknownsoldier]

Most areas of the world do not recognize the term pre-ban, that is correct. A few select countries including the U.S does and you can import pre-ban ivory into the U.S. The kicker is if you mark your customs dec as Ivory the item will be held by fish and wildlife and you have to prove to their satisfaction it is pre-ban. Current production Ivory is allowed to be imported only when they have legal culling of heards in a couple of countries and basically it's the same story you need loads of documentation and can expect a long wait. I worked for Immigration and Custom's Enforcement and years ago the custom's house in NYC (before it was destroyed during 9/11) was lined with seized Ivory artifacts many priceless. In actuality Pre ban really is garbage. Most is illegally traded especially in the far east and smuggled into countries.

Of course this applies to Elephant and Narwhale. Mamouth and hippo and walrus and elk are totally legal.

Thank you so much, that is most interesting and educational....

Tom

 

[SliceOfLife]

Elk have tusks? Or are their teeth just so damn big you can make small "ivory" trinkets out of them?

 

[moshulu]

Tom,

You said that you are not a lawyer, but then you go on to say:

So if you buy a snooker ball and have it turned, into a handle for your shaving brush, technically you are breaking international law, but it is likely only to be enacted upon, if you transport it, ship it, sell it or give it to anyone else, as although the item was antique to begin with you have now changed it and the antique getout on longer applies. A handy piece of info if you are turning a handle for someone else, as you technically it seems ould be enabling a breaking of law.

That's pretty categorical and strong. What gives you the right to warn people about breaking the law, when the action you describe seems to have nothing to do with international trade or the CITES treaty?

I enjoy making ivory shaving brush handles, using recycled 19th century decorative objects, and I have yet to see any proof that I am breaking the law. One has to be very careful about this kind of statement.

I, too, am not a lawyer, but my understanding is this: in most countries, it is legal to buy and possess antique ivory objects. When they are yours, you can do anything you want with them, except selling/sending abroad, which requires a certificate. That's very different from what you wrote.

 

[Unknownsoldier]

Tom,

You said that you are not a lawyer, but then you go on to say:



That's pretty categorical and strong. What gives you the right to warn people about breaking the law, when the action you describe seems to have nothing to do with international trade or the CITES treaty?

I enjoy making ivory shaving brush handles, using recycled 19th century decorative objects, and I have yet to see any proof that I am breaking the law. One has to be very careful about this kind of statement.

Right, what I wrote is actually a paraphrasing of a ruling by CITES, (although this document was provided for the UK, where I am based, as are a number of members, the CITES is an international treaty, and is adhered to in the US).

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/cites?q=elephant+ivory&imageField.x=0&imageField.y=0

If you peruse Apendix I & II of the CITES regulations, this covers Elephants and trade in their body parts. You will be able to read more

I, too, am not a lawyer, but my understanding is this: in most countries, it is legal to buy and possess antique ivory objects. When they are yours, you can do anything you want with them, except selling/sending abroad, which requires a certificate. That's very different from what you wrote.

It would seem this is not true, it would seem under cites if you alter them then you cannot legally sell them on or transport across borders (as you are then trading in illegal items, as their definitions changes once you alter it, in the same way I could buy a block of steel legally, but if I make it into a firearm I am then breaking the law, that seems to be an easier analogy), you are afforded protection of ownership by law as they of antique provenance and value, however altering them, as in my i.e. of turning a snooker ball into a brush handle, they are no longer afforded that protection and would no longer be protected, they would then fall under the further part of cites and could be confiscated should you attempt to sell them or transport them.

I did actually post the piece from CITES, but perhaps my referencing is not so good:

Here we go;

"The public and indeed antique dealers do not understand that antique
items such as snooker balls which have recently been re-carved into walking stick handles for example no longer qualify under the antiques derogation."

This is an excerpt from the CITES regulations, I was just making it more relevant to us shavers.......

I am not a lawyer but do study law in my spare time, it was never my intent to provide any legal guidance, just give people an idea of what they are dealing with and to give them avenues to conduct their own research into their activity's. Anyway this is getting away from the point of the post, which was as stated above a piece of information, whether or not it is relevant to you in your time, place, etc. is up to you, but just be aware.

ATB,
Tom

 

[dpmtherrien]

Very good info. Thanks for the post.

 

[Unknownsoldier]

Very good info. Thanks for the post.

Thanks, as said it's not intended to be the be all and end all in regards to anything, but it seemed worthwhile posting what seems to be a treaty with a lot of nooks and cranny's..... and people should be aware of the quagmire they are getting in to.

ATB,
Tom

 

[Radkowski]

Well for most interested you probably have heard about it, but now after July 6th national law will make selling ivory across state lines illegal. many states have already made the selling of ivory illegal.
I don't think this ban will make things any different than the current situation. The elephant will still need saved, razors will still be on ebay. And hunters can still pay to kill two elephants a year and bring home the "trophie". I'm not against hunting but how can this even be a law, seriously. 400,000 left and 30,000 a year killed so something like 13-20 more years with these animals outside of zoos.
How does this affect you and your razor? I personally have a few and i am sad that i must hang onto them so I can show my grandkids, or maybe even kids, the beauty that was.
what do you think about this law? I can't get my head around it

 

[Legion]

Personally, I think they should have a ban on importation of ivory, which they pretty much already do. If new ivory can't get into the country, I see no reason why the old stuff cant be sold across state lines. It's not like elephants are a domestic animal. Anything illegally poached should get stopped at the countries boarder.

 

[pundi64]

Kill all the bloody poachers, that'll stop the mass killings of Elephants, Walrus, or any other animal poachers kill only for the ivory.

 

[Mischief]

Kill all the bloody poachers, that'll stop the mass killings of Elephants, Walrus, or any other animal poachers kill only for the ivory.

I like this approach!

 

[spoken36]

NPR had an article that ran in 2013 about elephant overpopulation problems in South Africa. Probably not a real crisis that's driving the new laws, rather, the crisis is in the minds of law makers and their phobia of stalled totalitarian progress.

 

[Brianskeet]

I have watched how they fixed low animal populations all over the United States and would like to see Africa adopt the same model. When I was a kid no Turkey in TN. Brought a few in, charged big bucks to hunt with the money going into habitat preservation and wardens to enforce the hunting seasons. Now there are LOTS of turkeys. The same basic model has worked for deer, elk, moose, quail, pheasant, coyote(worked to well), trout, and bear. Saving these species has had a trickle down effect helping hundreds of other species. If you look at the money that preserves habitat and pays game wardens to protect from unauthorized poaching it becomes obvious that the hunter is the best friend the animals have. If half the money you ever spent on ivory went directly to protecting the animals from poachers you would have to put up fences to protect against elephant herds wandering through towns.