First time honing. Need feedback.

[Mr_Spiffy]

So, today was my first attempt at honing a razor. For some stupid reason that is unbeknownst to me, I decided to hone a razor that no only had to have a new bevel, but it also had a slight smile to it. For my first time honing a razor. Ever. Not sure what I was thinking...

Either way, it took some time and practice to get my honing stroke down, especially with the smiling razor. But, I think I managed to get a pretty good stroke on the film. I even managed to keep the bevel even. Even so, I still need some feedback, because I still need to get the razor sharper. I'll explain in a moment.

So, to start, here's what the razor looked like before honing. It's a J. R. Torrey.

As you can see, the edge has significant damage...

Here it is now, after honing. All smoothed out.

I started out using a coarse stone I have for kitchen knives, to take metal off to fix the edge and set a bevel. I then went to a medium stone, again for kitchen knives. Then I went through a progression of honing films, starting at 12u, then 5u, then 3u, then 1u. But, I noticed it didn't feel nearly as sharp as my KA-BAR that I got from Whipped Dog. So, I went back down to the medium stone until it felt pretty smooth, then hit the fine stone, then back through the progression of films.

At each step in the films, I made sure to do at least 100 laps (1 lap = back and forth). Going back down through the progression again seemed to help significantly. The 1u film I hit with 150 laps. And it felt pretty sharp. The KA-BAR feels sharper, but I was wondering if this is because it's a full hollow-ground blade, and the Torrey appears to be a half-hollow blade.

Torrey on left, KA-BAR on right:

So, I thought, what better way to test it than to try shaving with it? So, I gave it a whirl. It definitely did shave. No real nicks, cuts, or razor burn. It didn't feel very rough, per se. But, it required some forward pressure to push through and cut the hairs. More pressure than would have been needed with my KA-BAR, that's for sure. So, that tells me it's not nearly as sharp. Am I right? I mean, I could apply a fair amount of pressure and not feel afraid of getting sliced up. Is this a characteristic of thicker grinds or smaller-width blades? (The Torrey looks like a 4/8, compared to the KA-BAR, which should be a 5/8.)

So... how do I get this thing sharper? Do I just need to go back through the films again? More laps? Is it a technique thing? Should I post a video of how I'm honing? Is it bevel angle?

But for now, it's break time... my arm could use it!

 

[cb91710]

I'm not a fan of HHT since it is so inconsistent, but are you getting an HHT and if so, what "level"
Keep in mind, only my Wacker will give any kind of HHT result from my wife's spidersilk-fine hair.

 

[Wid]

It all starts with the bevel. If that's not right anything that follows is useless. Make sure it will shave arm/leg hair before moving on to higher grits.

 

[smalltank]

Well..blade should be flat against the first grit...use firm pressure for about 20 laps..check the edge can shave arm hair easily...if not..keep at the first grit using firm pressure... I recently honed up 3 razors for a few gents...took me 2-3 hours for the first 2 ..the 3rd razor went much quicker and easier....just to get an edge back on em..just depends on the condition of the edge and how far its gone from a new edge..make sense?

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

As of right now, I'd be hard-pressed to say it passes any level of HHT. But I don't have any good hair to test with, as my facial hair is coarser than the hair on my head or arms.

I think what I'll do is go back to the medium/fine stones again, and really make sure I have a smooth bevel. That helped a lot the first time I did it. Hopefully it'll resolve any issues and get this puppy sharp!

 

[Pete_T]

It all starts with the bevel. If that's not right anything that follows is useless. Make sure it will shave arm/leg hair before moving on to higher grits.

Yeah, this. Wish someone had told me this when I started honing. Sharpen with your 1000 grit like you would if you had to shave off it. Once you get is shaving soft body hair give it another hundred on that grit. After that everything should start falling in line.

 

[smalltank]

shaving off a 1k is pretty harsh IMO..its when you get to the higher grits before finishing thats much smoother

 

[cb91710]

shaving off a 1k is pretty harsh IMO..its when you get to the higher grits before finishing thats much smoother

Quite true... but the point is that if the bevel is not good enough to shave off of at 1k, no amount of polishing with the higher grits is going to make it shave any better.
The 1k sets the bevel.
The 4k refines the bevel.
8k and higher polish the bevel.

It's counterintuitive... one would think that more passes on 8k could replace the 4k step, but that does not seem to be the case in practice.

 

[Pete_T]

shaving off a 1k is pretty harsh IMO..its when you get to the higher grits before finishing thats much smoother

Yeah, I was saying that you should sharpen it like you would if you had to shave off it, not to actually shave off a 1k. Kind of like "dance like nobodys watching you". Except the dance part is pretty bad idea. I've seen people do that. Its not pretty.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Yeah, I was saying that you should sharpen it like you would if you had to shave off it, not to actually shave off a 1k. Kind of like "dance like nobodys watching you". Except the dance part is pretty bad idea. I've seen people do that. Its not pretty.

That makes sense. Unfortunately, I don't have stones of a known grit. I have a three-stone set that I got to sharpen kitchen knives. I wasn't anticipating using it, except I needed to take off some serious metal, and the 12u film wasn't cutting it. (No pun intended.) Perhaps I should look into a Norton 1200 or something to kick things off. Might make this a lot easier, especially if I plan to restore razors more in the future.

 

[Wid]

A 1k stone is must if you're honing rough blades.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Okay, so, if I'm using the films I listed (12u, 5u, 3u, 1u), what else do I need? Sounds like a DMT or Norton 1200 are a good place to start. Or perhaps a Naniwa 1k? Should I consider something else between the 1k and the 12u film?

Also, I'm seeing the Naniwa 1k's have multiple types. Superstone vs non. Thicker vs. thinner. Any advice here, as well?

ETA: After some digging on grit vs micron size, looks like the 12u is somewhere in the 1k to 1.2k grit size. Is that right? Should I be using the 12u for setting a bevel??

 

[Pete_T]

Naniwa are good, I would go with them or shapton. A dmt 600 in addition would pretty much cover all the bases. But that kitchen knife set up might have a 600 grit as the finest. Speaking of which, you might still be able to pull things off. Just use the finest grit kitchen hone then go to your 12 micron film. 12 micron would be about 1400 grit JIS, I think. Its a big leap, so you'd want to spend extra time on the 12 micron film getting rid of the roughness from the kitchen hone, but it might work out fine. Worth trying if you're so inclined.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Thanks! I was wondering about the grit vs. micron comparison, and your answer helps a lot. I'll probably go back to the 12u film for maybe another 100-200 laps and see how it shaves hair before proceeding. Looks like I'm in the general ballpark of where I need to be. But that grit jump may have been a bit too much with only 100 laps.

 

[cb91710]

My personal collection:

Old progression:
DMT325 for lapping (and perhaps serious metal removal if needed) > DMT1200 for setting the bevel > Norton 4k/8k Combo > Naniwa 12k >CrOX > Leather
I later added a C12K, and while it improved the edge over the Naniwa, it was not a huge difference.

New progression:
Coticule Dilucot/Unicot (still experimenting on Unicot) > Linen > Leather

 

[Pete_T]

I should have mentioned, use the finest kitchen hone as your bevel setter. If its 600 you should be able to get it close to body hair shaving sharp, or all the way sharp enough to shave body hair.

Another trick is to look at the razor edge on and see if there is light reflecting off the edge. If there is you need to hone on the bevel setter till its all gone.

 

[Doc226]

Cherry tomatoes, use cherry tomatoes to check the bevel. A properly set bevel should cut cherry tomatoes EASILY along the entire length of the blade.

Does the same thing as shaving arm hair but you don't look like you have mange

 

[cpcohen1945]

My rule of thumb:

Micron-size = 15000 / grit

So a 15 micron lapping film should be _roughly_ equivalent to a 1000-grit stone.

You could try some 1000-grit wet-or-dry sandpaper. It's aggressive, cheap, and works nicely to create bevels. For higher grits, I finally learned my lesson:

. . . For good results, use light pressure

A heavy hand on an 8K-grit stone doesn't give you a good edge.

Charles

 

[shakin_jake]

Hey Mr. Spiffy!, that's a nice looking blade...looks like a 1/4 grind to me

as the others have said, you need to make sure you correct the bevels before moving on. I just watched the video Doc? put up, checking the progress using a cherry tomatoe <LOL> ...that's a new one on me. I seldom have cherry tomatoes lying around but I haven't shaved all of the hair off my arms yet, thogh sometimes I have to look for hair on my legs so I can do the standard arm hair shave test. that's the test I'm most familair with, used to check to see if it's time to move off the bevel correction

i noticed someone else in the thread mentioned it took him a long time (or some time) to learn that lesson. It's true, your final edge finish is determined by how well your bevels are corrected. Get bevel correction down pat in wood, the rest of the edge will fall into place, but you can't scrimp on your bevel set/correct

and like Doc's video, it's best to start out dulling the edge so you start with an edge that wont shave arm hair. After all, how do we know what we know?...if you start bevel correction on a shaving edge, what exactly did *you* accomplish?

i can't comment on what to use film wise to correct a bevel. I have 4 + bevel correcting hones I use for that kind of work, along with various coticules that easily correct razor bevles...but it's my understanding following the lapping film threads, 12 and 5 will get it done, if there isn't any real heavy lifting involved, but I can say with authority, once you get your bevels corrected, you can most certainly jump to 3 and then 1um. Done it many times with quite fine shaving edges as the result


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

 

[Kentos]

Hey Mr. Spiffy!, that's a nice looking blade...looks like a 1/4 grind to me

as the others have said, you need to make sure you correct the bevels before moving on. I just watched the video Doc? put up, checking the progress using a cherry tomatoe <LOL> ...that's a new one on me. I seldom have cherry tomatoes lying around but I haven't shaved all of the hair off my arms yet, thogh sometimes I have to look for hair on my legs so I can do the standard arm hair shave test. that's the test I'm most familair with, used to check to see if it's time to move off the bevel correction

i noticed someone else in the thread mentioned it took him a long time (or some time) to learn that lesson. It's true, your final edge finish is determined by how well your bevels are corrected. Get bevel correction down pat in wood, the rest of the edge will fall into place, but you can't scrimp on your bevel set/correct

and like Doc's video, it's best to start out dulling the edge so you start with an edge that wont shave arm hair. After all, how do we know what we know?...if you start bevel correction on a shaving edge, what exactly did *you* accomplish?

i can't comment on what to use film wise to correct a bevel. I have 4 + bevel correcting hones I use for that kind of work, along with various coticules that easily correct razor bevles...but it's my understanding following the lapping film threads, 12 and 5 will get it done, if there isn't any real heavy lifting involved, but I can say with authority, once you get your bevels corrected, you can most certainly jump to 3 and then 1um. Done it many times with quite fine shaving edges as the result


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

There is some minor controversy surrounding dulling a razor on glass, but I agree with Jake on the need to dull a new to you razor prior to rehoning. On a new to you razor it is hard to determine if you are hitting the entire bevel on the reset. I ink the edge with a sharpie pen to check, but even then it is hard to know for sure if you really reset the edge all the way out to the "invisible" intersection of the two sides. By dulling the whole edge you will know for sure that you have hit the entire thing.
I had one razor back early in my honing days that I got from Ebay. It would cut arm hair ok after the 1k, but I could never refine the edge up through my Nani progression to 12k. Come to find out I had never reset the bevel, and all I was doing was abrading the areas just before the cutting edge- I was basically shaving with the same edge the razor came with off the bay.

So yeah, I dull new razors, and razors that I intend to rehone with a different method ie. Naniwa to coti, or cot to Jnat. YMMV of course