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"Fine India Steel" A hype? A hoax? No!

W&B, Joesph Elliot & more Sheffield makers made some razors from "India Steel"
I've read some posts that it was a simple marketing hype.

But the evidence says no.
India steel or Wootz steel that is the proper name has an ancient history, much like the original Damascus steel.

Here is a full report:
http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~wootz/heritage/WOOTZ.htm

And for the lazy ones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

And even shorter:
  • Wootz was a kick-butt steel.
  • The recipe got lost during the 1700's.
  • A Russian guy rediscovered it in the early 1800's.
  • W&B et. al got hold of the recipe & patented it & used it in some razors.
  • Those of us who have tried "India Steel" knows that is really is kick-butt great!
 
Honed,

Good to know as I have a W&B India Steel razor due to arrive today !

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ
 
Sorry, but the "Fine India Steel" from W&B has nothing to do with Wootz. You can easily see the different in the steel:

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=...&sa=X&ei=FLdhTPX5FoOUOLnh-IcK&ved=0CC8Q9QEwBg

They are very good shavers, that is right. But the only straights made from wootz i know, are from Joe Chandler:

proxy.php
 
Sorry, but the "Fine India Steel" from W&B has nothing to do with Wootz.

If we define wootz as damascus, then I agree totally. However, the fact that early experimenters took wootz as a starting point for crucible steel and then redefined the process does irrevocably tie crucible steels into the wootz folklore.

Experimenters like Faraday, Mushet and Huntsman took wootz as their inspiration for attempting different crucible steel recipes - their results do not have a damascus-like pattern, but to say that wootz played no part in their making is wrong.

Patterned damascus steel stepped off the worlds stage rather dramatically in the mid 1700s - one theory is that the wootz from India came from another source that lacked vanadium, a crucial ingredient. The unpatterned variety was still called 'wootz' though - the word itself is accepted to mean just 'steel' - and it still came from India. Indian Steel.

Most authorities agree that it is impossible to define what wootz really was. The most basic definition is that it was any steel made using a crucible. However, although wootz was a crucible steel, not all crucible steels are wootz and throwing in the term "India Steel" can only confuse the issue more.

I prefer to see it as a process of transformation - you have to have a starting point. Denying that the a product some way along the chain is nothing to do with the chain originator is, at best, a question of semantics.

Regards,
Neil
 
Not much, but the one razor i have with "Fine India Steel" is a Greaves that is absoultley exceptional!
I've heard that from a lot of folks.
I think Mr Miller is right, it's hard to exactly know what is what, but there was a transition going on as how steel was made.
Like everything else there was certainly highs & lows in the development.
"India" was one of the highs :thumbup1:
 
If we define wootz as damascus, then I agree totally. However, the fact that early experimenters took wootz as a starting point for crucible steel and then redefined the process does irrevocably tie crucible steels into the wootz folklore.

Experimenters like Faraday, Mushet and Huntsman took wootz as their inspiration for attempting different crucible steel recipes - their results do not have a damascus-like pattern, but to say that wootz played no part in their making is wrong.

Patterned damascus steel stepped off the worlds stage rather dramatically in the mid 1700s - one theory is that the wootz from India came from another source that lacked vanadium, a crucial ingredient. The unpatterned variety was still called 'wootz' though - the word itself is accepted to mean just 'steel' - and it still came from India. Indian Steel.

Most authorities agree that it is impossible to define what wootz really was. The most basic definition is that it was any steel made using a crucible. However, although wootz was a crucible steel, not all crucible steels are wootz and throwing in the term "India Steel" can only confuse the issue more.

I prefer to see it as a process of transformation - you have to have a starting point. Denying that the a product some way along the chain is nothing to do with the chain originator is, at best, a question of semantics.

Regards,
Neil

I've heard that from a lot of folks.
I think Mr Miller is right, it's hard to exactly know what is what, but there was a transition going on as how steel was made.
Like everything else there was certainly highs & lows in the development.
"India" was one of the highs :thumbup1:

Neil schooled me on crucible steel the other day and I agree there is a "generation" gap that is not the same with today's wootz/crucible steel.
 
Like alot of things in the old days names were taken for products to hype them and maybe the names at one time referred to exceptional materials but the razors that have india steel on them are plain carbon steel. It's no different than at one time silver steel had silver in it but razors marked silver steel have no silver in them though some still think they do.
 
Like alot of things in the old days names were taken for products to hype them and maybe the names at one time referred to exceptional materials but the razors that have india steel on them are plain carbon steel. It's no different than at one time silver steel had silver in it but razors marked silver steel have no silver in them though some still think they do.
Some kind of source to back up your remark would be great :001_smile
 
Some kind of source to back up your remark would be great :001_smile


Sorry, but where are your sources for this: But the evidence says no.
India steel or Wootz steel that is the proper name has an ancient history, much like the original Damascus steel.


And I mean not a abstract view, I mean exactly for the "Fine India Steel" used for straight razors. I had some of this razors in my hands. Only one, was very different then the others: http://fine-razors.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=7

Very hard and very difficult to hone. I needed hours but it shave after years like on the first day. This one is part of my own collection. All the others Fine India I had in my hand are absolutely in the same range like other sheffield blades.
 
Sorry, but where are your sources for this: But the evidence says no.
India steel or Wootz steel that is the proper name has an ancient history, much like the original Damascus steel.


And I mean not a abstract view, I mean exactly for the "Fine India Steel" used for straight razors. I had some of this razors in my hands. Only one, was very different then the others: http://fine-razors.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=7

Very hard and very difficult to hone. I needed hours but it shave after years like on the first day. This one is part of my own collection. All the others Fine India I had in my hand are absolutely in the same range like other sheffield blades.
The article I linked to is a good start.
Also here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucible_steel#English_crucible_steel

Likely, the W&B you have is true India steel or lets call it crucible steel.
Then, others just might have hopped the train & rode on the originals legendary status.
Like the article states, once the Bessemer method got established, wootz dissapeared, it was simply to much hassle compared to the new Bessemer technology.
 
Because a razor is hard to hone and says India Steel on it means nothing. I have plenty of razors that are a real bear to hone and they are not india steel.
 
I think there is a tremendous difference in some razors marked India Steel. I have probably 10 such razors. Some of them are VERY different than regular steel. Some are super shavers, yet sound like a butter knife when plucked. Easy to hone and very sharp super shavers. I have resisted posting about this until I bought all I wanted. There is definitely a difference in the steel. As far as wootz, damascus and india steel; it is all the same. Steel was exported from India for thousands of years. Crucible steel was the first commercial method to produce high carbon steel.
Maybe a marketing ploy for some razor makers , but not all.
 
I have a razor that says fine india steel wanted razor, I could not find any other knife or razor with this logo, I would be very happy if you have other ideas.
 
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