Eat Food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

[silvertip beard]

Lately, I've become very interested in and concerned about the condition of factory-farmed animals/animal products and my overuse of "edible food-like substances".

This all started when I picked up "Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan. Interesting reading. Until recently, I was a junk-food, red-meat, bacon-eatin good ol boy. Now I'm seriously considering a vegan diet.

Anyone else have convictions about the nature and objectives of the American food industry?

 

[jswhitley]

I dont at all, the animals were put here for us to eat IMO. I also think that the high volume nature of our food industry is essential to keep up with the demand for our Nation. Dont flame me as I am just stating my personal opinion.

 

[ek.310]

vegan..meaning NO eggs?!

 

[luvmysuper]

I like vegetables. I like my red meat and my bacon. I like my fast food burgers from time to time.
There are very few things that I don't eat, and those are generally because of taste not content.
Moderation in all things (except those shaving related) is a good thing.
I respect other peoples choices in particular food products, and hope that others will respect mine.

 

[danek]

Personally, I don't like the idea of arificial and overly-processed food stuffs. Also, I can see some of the concerns that people might have with large livestock producers, but I don't think that large vegetable/fruit producers are using any less "sketchy practices".

 

[mr_economy]

One thing to note about being vegan - and I believe Pollan covers this in In Defense of Food - is that nearly all meat-substitute foods made to look/feel/taste like meat are just as pumped full of chemicals as the factory-farmed steak you'd otherwise be eating. The soybean industry is heavily subsidized and almost completely dominated by the genetic-engineering Big Ag corporations.

I think the thread title is the best mantra to follow. Meat is not evil, despite what the hippie vegan movement has been shouting for decades. In fact margarine, which as Pollan points out actually did far more harm than butter ever could have, is indeed a vegan vegetarian substance.

Ethically speaking, there is no getting around killing animals to eat food. The number of field mice killed in the harvesting of wheat and other crops is probably in the millions or tens of millions. The New York Times recently ran an interesting article describing the way plants evolve defenses to avoid being eaten by predators, a behavior we usually think about only in relation to animals.

If you want to be more ethical in your choice of animal products, I might suggest searching for local farmers who are willing to directly sell you meat. You can talk with them and even see for yourself the conditions under which the animals are raised. This is preferable to buying "cage free" poultry or "free range" beef as those terms have little or no legally regulated meaning. Local farmers markets are fantastic places to find these meat products, as well as fruits and veggies. You might be surprised to find that many of these local farmers use mostly or all organic methods, but don't have the money to buy a certification.

 

[Doc4]

Lately, I've become very interested in and concerned about the condition of factory-farmed animals/animal products and my overuse of "edible food-like substances".

This all started when I picked up "Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan. Interesting reading. Until recently, I was a junk-food, red-meat, bacon-eatin good ol boy. Now I'm seriously considering a vegan diet.

Anyone else have convictions about the nature and objectives of the American food industry?

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. "Mostly plants" leaves plenty of room for the odd bit of "free range" whateverbeast or trolling-line-caught sustainable scalyfriends, so find the right happy median, not swing from one insane extreme to the other.

 

[RazorPete]

+1 on what Kyle said. Farmers markets are a great resource for fresh unprocesed locally grown food, which we should all be eating more of. +1 also on the pollan book' in defense of food' - quite an eye opening treatise, especially to me, who thought med school had taught me everything I needed to know about nutrition. Boy was I wrong.

 

[kprincehouse]

+1 to what Kyle said.

I came to the same conclusion that silvertip beard did, or a similar conclusion at least. I don't have an ethical problem with eating meat--at least, I don't mind the killing, but I sure as hell mind how we're treating them when they're alive. The industrialization of food production has created some awful conditions.

Once I did the research and really understood what feedlots are doing to get the price as low as possible, I realized that my wanting to save $1 on those eggs meant the chicken spent its entire life in a cage with its beak cut off, or saving that $1 on a pound of bacon meant the pig lived knee-deep in sea of filth, packed shoulder to shoulder, or... ugh. I'm lucky enough not to need that dollar that badly.

Also, I have problems with the environmental damage and other negative externalities, and I have BIG problems with Monsanto's intellectual property strategy, but that's another story on its own.

I see a lot of hope in how this is catching on. I particularly like the growth of the middle-ground: People who are not vegan or even vegetarian necessarily, but still care about where their food comes from and what its production does to the world.

It's important not to swing too far the other way, of course. For example, there are some questions about genetically modified foods that I think are important to ask (patent issues, contamination, genetic diversity, et cetera), but it really pisses me off when "environmentalist" organizations do things like convince needy governments to turn away GMO food aid. Vegans in developed countries with the luxury to eat 2000 calories of organic foods have absolutely no f'ing right to prioritize their morals, however sincere, above the survival of malnourished populations.

Anyway... yeah, for the past three months I've been only buying "good" meat for the meals I prepare at home. Grass fed, pasture raised beef and the like. It's harder to find, and a bit more expensive, but it's worth it, for me at least. (When I eat at a friend's house or go to a restaurant I don't worry about it, though.)

 

[knlgskr]

Don't/never have worried much about fads or what others thought; have always tried to do what based upon time, place, circumstance was best for the planet, my locale, and me in that order when feasible.

Is there a problem obtaining Vitamin B12 without taking supplements if you are a Vegan?

As for lifestyles, I try to avoid "preaching to the choir" and endeavor to mind my own business and wish some others would do so also or at least keep their thoughts to themselves; if/when I want/need advice I am not afraid to ask for it but there are too many buttinskys who give it regardless and too frequently know little or nothing about what they are advocating.

"An expert is someone who is wrong with a loud voice or a drip under pressure" "You can always depend upon a spout dripping or a drip spouting."

Been there, done that, seen it, heard it before and the above includes me at various times.

 

[WhosYerBob]

I just eat what agrees with my stomach, which tends to be less and less each year as I get older.

 

[johnmrson]

There's room for all God's creatures.................right here on my plate next to the vegies.

I've got a friend who is a vegan and he must spend half his life reading food packets to make sure that it doesn't contain something obscure like gelatin.
I buy most of my meat from one butcher who gets all his meat from a select few farmers that he has hand picked. He kills and butchers all the animals he sells. I am very particular about buying fresh chicken. It has to be free range and organic.

 

[SHarris]

As you seem to love the flesh, giving up completely will be tough and I think unnecessary.

Just be a bit more selective eat a little less and the best quality you can afford.
It demands a shift in attitude paying a lot more for what you're used to, actually that's more difficult than giving it up completely.

 

[xriley]

I think it is best to support more traditional methods of raising animals as well as minimizing the genetic alterations, hormones and steroids, etc that are administered to the animals we eat.

That being said, the animals we eat aren't really animals in the same sense as our cats and dogs. They are produced to grow as fast and big as possible to keep everyone's belly and wallet full.

Don't believe all the propaganda that the vegans/PETA produce. It's really about perspective and how you shine a light on it.

To "stop eating meat" is just crazy talk.

 

[hypo_style]

Pollan is an interesting writer. I've only read one or two of his books, but I believe that his position is more nuanced than we should only eat this or only eat that.

At least as I understand, or have come to believe, I think the argument is not that we shouldn't eat meat at all, but that we should pay as much attention as possible to where all of our food comes from and how it gets to us, because so much of the food industry has developed a business approach that puts profit ahead of safety or long-term well-being (of its consumers, its country, or even its own business).

Of course, this is not to take the reductive logic that business practices are inherently evil. I recognize that even my own family has been able to rise out of poverty over the past hundred years partially due to economies of scale that have made more material goods affordable to more people. I was able to eat a greater variety of food as a child than my parents had available to them when they were children, and I benefited as a result. But now, I find that those same economies of scale are helping my parents live unhealthily as they age on a diet of ever-processed foods and no exercise. Mind you, this is their choice. This is not to say they have no personal responsibility for how they live; it is completely true that they themselves make the choice of cost-effectiveness of processed foods over more natural or locally-available (but more expensive) options.

I would think that this irony would not be lost on our online shaving community. Shaving has become ever-cheaper over the course of the past century, but most of us are here because we've realized that the cost innovations and business practices pioneered by Gillette a century ago (some of which we cherish) have now led to the contemporary approach of marketing less-effective, wasteful multi-blade disposable razors and other products*. We in this community have made the choice to forgo the fast-n-cheapo can of Foamy in favor of the slightly more expensive and more labor-intensive (because of brush lathering) puck of soap, but we have done so because we recognize the pleasure and long-term benefits involved.

I think Michael Pollan is probably arguing for more or less the same thing with regard to our awareness of our own food choices, except the stakes are higher, because with food of course we are actually injesting the stuff, rather than just smearing it across our faces.

Of course, having not read more of Pollan's work, I could be totally off-base in summarizing his position. Please forgive me and correct me if so!


*I realize there's a flaw in my analogy of shaving products with processed food, in that multi-blade razor blades are far more expensive than their DE predecessors, but I think the truth of their diminishing returns holds true. It's just that Gillette has managed to convince us that we need those extra blades, despite the cost.

 

[Mysterion]

First, I'd like to applaud the OP for giving some thoughtful consideration into what goes into his mouth. I haven't read Pollan's book, but it sounds as if he's spreading a gospel that I've been (quietly) preaching for decades; I've been a vegetarian since 1974, gave up all milk products around '84. I do eat an occasional egg--very occasional. I also worked in the natural foods industry through much of the 80s and 90s--an interesting time, as it was transitioning from a fringe element to a much more mainstream concern.

I think it's pretty obvious that humans have evolved as omnivores--our dentition and digestive tracts make that clear. I also think our outsized brains put us in a unique position among animals: In our current industrialized incarnation, we can make conscious choices about our diet. I've made my choice, and I do not object to people eating meat. I do, however, believe the treatment of factory-farmed animals is obscene and shameful. Moreover, I think--know--that meat constitutes a disproportionate component of the American diet. People just eat too much meat. This hurts everyone--both in increased healthcare costs, and in the burden that it places on the land, and the overall food supply. It simply makes no economic sense to channel so much energy and resources into feed crops for cattle.

As far as nutrition goes--the greatest concern in a vegan diet is indeed B12; it can be obtained from supplements, including spirulina, a sea vegetable (algae) that's very high in nutrients. Tempeh, a cultured soy product, is also a good source. Are these sources typically available in "a state of nature?" No, but we're so far from that, it's a moot point. Is it an issue that most of our (GMO) soybean crops have been so jerked around by Monsanto that they are of questionable integrity? Absolutely. But that's an economic debate for another day.

As far as health concerns: Giving up meat is not a free ticket to improved health or fitness. But it's a good start, and it reflects an awareness of the importance of diet as one of the building blocks. I've certainly met folks who ate no meat, but were not particularly healthy. I've also known quite a few vegetarians or vegans who were successful competitive athletes (I count myself in this category, though I no longer compete. Still, my doctors support my dietary choices, and are consistently impressed with my overall fitness, and excellent test stats.)

Finally, a word in support of local farmers everywhere: One of the great (but inevitable) disappointments of the current popularity of organic foods is the establishment of huge, monocultural organic farms, typically owned by the same mega-conglomerates that have done so much to screw up our food supply. These farms tend to meet the letter of the law in terms of being "organic," but they avoid much of the original intent. Support your local farmers. When you can, buy your fruit and vegetables from farmers' markets, CSAs, whatever. It's not always possible to do so out of season, but the rewards are great--both in vastly tastier, more nutritious food, and in "voting with your dollars."

So well done, OP. Making a major change in diet is not always easy, and it should be viewed as an evolving process--for most, it's a journey of finding out what's right for you. But it starts with an active consciousness of what's on your plate, and the repercussions it has--for your health, for the economy, for the environment, and for the animals with whom we share it.

 

[chilipepper]

I say eat what nature provides. If you are concerned about the source, study your local sources and make your buying decisions based on what you find. Find a good and trusted butcher, ask him questions. Look for farmers market's or CSA's for fresh sources of fruits, meats and veggies, etc. and ask them questions so you know where your food is coming from.

I find it hard to believe how a soybean burger can be any better for you than a real beef hamburger. As stated earlier what the hell has to be added to that mush of soybeans to even get it to somewhat closely resemble beef is scary enough. If you want soybeans eat soybeans. If you are eating soybeans (plus whatever additives) because you want to eat a hamburger...well that just ain't right.

I think you can make a major change in diet and overall health by just eating as much real food as you can and eliminating all the processed junk from your diet. If you want to become a vegan that is your choice just make sure you do it for the right reasons. Otherwise, just work at becoming a more educated consumer and source out good food.

My $.02

 

[imahawki]

This comes down to evolution for me. We ARE in fact, omnivores. Our bodies from our teeth to our digestive systems are evolved to eat both meat and plants. What has happened in the last several decades is two things. 1) mass production of food resulting in many chemicals from growth hormones to preservatives being added to our food and 2) the incredible prosperity of industrialized nations. The poorest class of citizens in the US have more than 95% of people in 3rd world countries. Even people below the poverty line in the US eat junk food.

So my take (although I struggle to practice what I preach) is all things in moderation. Less junk food and smaller food portions.

 

[airplanedoc]

If you saw how all of the veggie food was produced, and the chemicals that go into it you would doubt it is much better for you. I once worked at one of the agri giant companies. Trust me a slaughter house is cleaner, and the list of bad for you stuff that they put in the vat is amazing.

 

[cvac]

I've been a dietary vegan for over a decade. I did it for personal/health reasons mainly. Feel free to PM me if you have questions, silvertip.

Oh yeah, most long time vegetarians and vegans don't eat a ton of those fake meat type products. Usually the people that eat a lot of them are new to a vegetarian/vegan diet, college students, or people who don't know how to cook or have no time to cook.