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Could this Old Type Be from a Khaki Set or other Military Set?

Calling all Experts Of B&B:a50:
I Bought this a few months ago (It came in a lot)
there was no case.
The Serial is: H496009
It is Currently being Replated By Krona Kruiser.
Here Are Pictures from when i got it. (I apologize if they are Dark)
$Dscf1708.jpg$Dscf1713.jpg$Dscf1715.jpg
 
I'll be interested to see the answer to this one too.
As you probably know, the serial number dates it to 1918..Im not sure if all razors made during WWI were made for the military or just the ones that are stamped "Property of U.S. Army".
I'm curious to know if Gillette made civilian razors during the war or just military.


 
Yours has the letter H 496009 which is a 1918 Army razor set. The USA Army sets came with Brownie style razor, metal blade box, and metal mirrors in a khaki canvas covered metal case or khaki snap pouch marked with the words " PROPERTY US ARRMY" inside the lid or flap.

The razors have the serial number on guard, for the years 1918-1919 the letters begin with E, F , G , H, J + plus the numbers. The 1919 and 1920 had K letters plus the nombers.
here is the series:
E-1 to F999999
F1 to F999999
G1 to G999999
H1 to h999999
J1 to J7344
Note: 1919- J7345 to ----

The years 1919 ( 1919 has J too) J7345 ----1920 has only the letter K plus the numbers.

here is the K series:

1919 is K1 to K927216
1920 is K927217--
 
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I Bought this a few months ago (It came in a lot)
there was no case.
The Serial is: H496009

From that serial number, yes, it could have come in a retail version Khaki Set. Soldiers entering the military were initially expected to bring their own shaving kits, but as things picked up the Army contracted with Gillette for millions of the hard case and soft roll sets. The ones that Gillette made under that contract would have been stamped "PROPERTY U.S. ARMY" under the head instead of having the Gillette diamond and "Made in U.S.A." like yours has.

But it could also have come from a standard Pocket Edition set, which Gillette would have still been making in 1918, too. The Razor Archive has scans of a 1918 catalog posted for reference.

One thing I can't tell is whether the handle has the patent date stamped on it. If the handle is original to that razor it should have it. If it's missing then the handle was swapped from a 1921-'29 Old Type.

Yours has the letter H 496009 which is a 1918 Army razor set. The USA Army sets came with Brownie style razor, metal blade box, and metal mirrors in a khaki canvas covered metal case or khaki snap pouch marked with the words " PROPERTY US ARRMY" inside the lid or flap.

It isn't necessarily from an Army set, and if it was it would have been more likely to have been from a retail version of one, since it's missing the "PROPERTY..." stamp on the razor. Gillette was still making their standard retail sets during 1918

The razors have the serial number on guard, for the years 1918-1919 the letters begin with E, F , G , H, J + plus the numbers. The 1919 and 1920 had K letters plus the nombers.
here is the series:
E-1 to F999999
F1 to F999999
G1 to G999999
H1 to h999999
J1 to J7344

Just a minor clarification here, in that they were already about halfway through the "E" series at the beginning of 1918, according to the information we have. So 1918 wouldn't have started with E1-E999999, but with E449208-E999999

Note: 1919- J7345 to ----

The years 1919 ( 1919 has J too) J7345 ----

One other point worth noting here is that for most of the "J" series, according to Krumholz, Gillette numbered razors in batches of 100 rather than individually -- that is, you'd have 100 razors all with the same "J" serial number.

1920 has only the letter K plus the numbers.

here is the K series:

1919 is K1 to K927216
1920 is K927217--

No, 1920 included more than just the "K" series, which was nearly finished by the end of 1919 anyway. It would have also included the full "M" series and almost the first half of the "N" series as well. The "L" series was skipped because it had already been used to stamp razors that had been returned for repair.

1920's run included:

K927217-K999999
M1-M999999
N1-N459887
 
From that serial number, yes, it could have come in a retail version Khaki Set. Soldiers entering the military were initially expected to bring their own shaving kits, but as things picked up the Army contracted with Gillette for millions of the hard case and soft roll sets. The ones that Gillette made under that contract would have been stamped "PROPERTY U.S. ARMY" under the head instead of having the Gillette diamond and "Made in U.S.A." like yours has.

But it could also have come from a standard Pocket Edition set, which Gillette would have still been making in 1918, too. The Razor Archive has scans of a 1918 catalog posted for reference.

One thing I can't tell is whether the handle has the patent date stamped on it. If the handle is original to that razor it should have it. If it's missing then the handle was swapped from a 1921-'29 Old Type.



It isn't necessarily from an Army set, and if it was it would have been more likely to have been from a retail version of one, since it's missing the "PROPERTY..." stamp on the razor. Gillette was still making their standard retail sets during 1918



Just a minor clarification here, in that they were already about halfway through the "E" series at the beginning of 1918, according to the information we have. So 1918 wouldn't have started with E1-E999999, but with E449208-E999999



One other point worth noting here is that for most of the "J" series, according to Krumholz, Gillette numbered razors in batches of 100 rather than individually -- that is, you'd have 100 razors all with the same "J" serial number.



No, 1920 included more than just the "K" series, which was nearly finished by the end of 1919 anyway. It would have also included the full "M" series and almost the first half of the "N" series as well. The "L" series was skipped because it had already been used to stamp razors that had been returned for repair.

1920's run included:

K927217-K999999
M1-M999999
N1-N459887
I see, i got this from the Waits Compendium...it seems like it had more errors than correct data. Maybe we can all get together and send him a notice to do some major revising of his compendium. Most of all Traditional Gillette and other razor historical data seems to be quoted from his book, and the major stuff seems to be incorrect.
 
From that serial number, yes, it could have come in a retail version Khaki Set. Soldiers entering the military were initially expected to bring their own shaving kits, but as things picked up the Army contracted with Gillette for millions of the hard case and soft roll sets. The ones that Gillette made under that contract would have been stamped "PROPERTY U.S. ARMY" under the head instead of having the Gillette diamond and "Made in U.S.A." like yours has.
So the numbers alone don't signify a Army set, it had to have the THE PROPERTY OF ARMY and the numbers.... I know Gillette made these look alike Army sets for the public and Sears was a major distributor.

But it could also have come from a standard Pocket Edition set, which Gillette would have still been making in 1918, too. The Razor Archive has scans of a 1918 catalog posted for reference.

One thing I can't tell is whether the handle has the patent date stamped on it. If the handle is original to that razor it should have it. If it's missing then the handle was swapped from a 1921-'29 Old Type.



It isn't necessarily from an Army set, and if it was it would have been more likely to have been from a retail version of one, since it's missing the "PROPERTY..." stamp on the razor. Gillette was still making their standard retail sets during 1918
So the razor could have still been made for the retail sector even if it doesnt have the patent stamp on it?



Just a minor clarification here, in that they were already about halfway through the "E" series at the beginning of 1918, according to the information we have. So 1918 wouldn't have started with E1-E999999, but with E449208-E999999
Yes, that was an over-site. The 1917 series ends at E 449207, so the 1918 E series should start at E 449208 and end at E 999999.....The 1918 F , G and H series are the ones that start at 999999.



One other point worth noting here is that for most of the "J" series, according to Krumholz, Gillette numbered razors in batches of 100 rather than individually -- that is, you'd have 100 razors all with the same "J" serial number.

No, 1920 included more than just the "K" series, which was nearly finished by the end of 1919 anyway. It would have also included the full "M" series and almost the first half of the "N" series as well. The "L" series was skipped because it had already been used to stamp razors that had been returned for repair.

1920's run included:

K927217-K999999
M1-M999999
N1-N459887
The Waits Compedium dont have the M, or half the N series listed as the Gillette contracted Army sets. So is this another Waits error?
 
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The Shave Wiki does not have the series listed correctly, maybe Mike can update it according to these findings from this thread.



1917D516475‑D999999
E1‑E449207
Military SetsAldred reorganizes Gillette as a Delaware corporation. Annual sales exceed 1.1M razors.
1918E449208‑E999999
F1‑F999999
G1‑G999999
H1‑H999999
J1‑J7344
All J Series are WWI production. Annual sales near 5M razors in 1918. "I" was not used as a serial number prefix.
1919J7345‑J999999
K1‑K927216
 
So the numbers alone don't signify a Army set, it had to have the THE PROPERTY OF ARMY and the numbers.... I know Gillette made these look alike Army sets for the public and Sears was a major distributor.

Gillette did advertise and sell the Khaki Sets (and other military sets) to the general public. As I mentioned there in my earlier post, men were supposed to bring their own shaving kits with them. Here's an example of the kind of advertising they ran for them back in the day:



So the razor could have still been made for the retail sector even if it doesnt have the patent stamp on it?

Well, we still don't know for sure that the patent date stamp is missing. But if it is, what I'd said was that would mean that it was swapped from a later razor. All of the razors that were made prior to the expiration of the patent (in 1921) should have the patent date on the handle.

The Waits Compedium dont have the M, or half the N series listed as the Gillette contracted Army sets. So is this another Waits error?

Those serial ranges were all of Gillette's production for 1920. I don't know that Gillette made any razors under their large Army contract in 1920. The fighting had ended with the Armistice in November 1918, and, though we were still on a war footing for longer, the Selective Service operations had ceased even before the Treaty of Versailles was signed in June of 1919.

Krumholz only calls out the "J" series as being entirely Army production. I'm not sure where Waits would have gotten anything about the "K" series. That's not to say that no Army razors were made in the "K" series, just that I don't know of any reason to think that the entire "K" series was also Army-only production if that's what Waits says.
 
The Shave Wiki does not have the series listed correctly, maybe Mike can update it according to these findings from this thread.

I actually just updated that table earlier this evening so that all of the ranges would be explicitly broken out. What are you saying isn't correct there?
 
Is it possible that the Patent Stamp could have worn off from use? I Don't see one in my pictures of the razor.
I don't remember there being one on it the last time i looked at it.
By the way, it could be a lack of sleep that is causing me to ask this, But is This Razor From A Gillette Military set or a public set?
Would a public Set have been used by a soldier?
Also, what did the blade holders look like that went with these? I may have one.
 
I actually just updated that table earlier this evening so that all of the ranges would be explicitly broken out. What are you saying isn't correct there?

You didnt include these numbers from your quote:

"No, 1920 included more than just the "K" series, which was nearly finished by the end of 1919 anyway. It would have also included the full "M" series and almost the first half of the "N" series as well. The "L" series was skipped because it had already been used to stamp razors that had been returned for repair.

1920's run included:

K927217-K999999
M1-M999999
N1-N459887"
 
Is it possible that the Patent Stamp could have worn off from use? I Don't see one in my pictures of the razor.
I don't remember there being one on it the last time i looked at it.
By the way, it could be a lack of sleep that is causing me to ask this, But is This Razor From A Gillette Military set or a public set?
Would a public Set have been used by a soldier?
Also, what did the blade holders look like that went with these? I may have one.

No, it's not lack of sleep,you have every right to still be wondering still.:001_unsur But it seems that your set is missing the "PROPERTY OF US ARMY " wording ( which i did not notice) , so it is a civilian set razor. In order for it to be a Army Set it must be made in 1918 to 1920 and contain the words "PROPERTY OF US ARMY " plus have letters E,F,G H,J K , M,N followed by the numbers.
 
Is it possible that the Patent Stamp could have worn off from use? I Don't see one in my pictures of the razor.
I don't remember there being one on it the last time i looked at it.
By the way, it could be a lack of sleep that is causing me to ask this, But is This Razor From A Gillette Military set or a public set?
Would a public Set have been used by a soldier?
Also, what did the blade holders look like that went with these? I may have one.
Here is a set 1919...


proxy.php
 
Is it possible that the Patent Stamp could have worn off from use? I Don't see one in my pictures of the razor.
I don't remember there being one on it the last time i looked at it.
By the way, it could be a lack of sleep that is causing me to ask this, But is This Razor From A Gillette Military set or a public set?
Would a public Set have been used by a soldier?
Also, what did the blade holders look like that went with these? I may have one.
That is good question...Let me look, but Porter may beat me to it....he is a quick draw of B&B west.:001_cool:
 
Gillette did advertise and sell the Khaki Sets (and other military sets) to the general public. As I mentioned there in my earlier post, men were supposed to bring their own shaving kits with them. Here's an example of the kind of advertising they ran for them back in the day:





Well, we still don't know for sure that the patent date stamp is missing. But if it is, what I'd said was that would mean that it was swapped from a later razor. All of the razors that were made prior to the expiration of the patent (in 1921) should have the patent date on the handle.



Those serial ranges were all of Gillette's production for 1920. I don't know that Gillette made any razors under their large Army contract in 1920. The fighting had ended with the Armistice in November 1918, and, though we were still on a war footing for longer, the Selective Service operations had ceased even before the Treaty of Versailles was signed in June of 1919.

Krumholz only calls out the "J" series as being entirely Army production. I'm not sure where Waits would have gotten anything about the "K" series. That's not to say that no Army razors were made in the "K" series, just that I don't know of any reason to think that the entire "K" series was also Army-only production if that's what Waits says.
Could have the continued razor production been a result of either peace keeping or police type military procedures? Maybe the Army could have stayed til 1920 under peace times but in non military function.
 
Is it possible that the Patent Stamp could have worn off from use? I Don't see one in my pictures of the razor.
I don't remember there being one on it the last time i looked at it.
By the way, it could be a lack of sleep that is causing me to ask this, But is This Razor From A Gillette Military set or a public set?
Would a public Set have been used by a soldier?
Also, what did the blade holders look like that went with these? I may have one.
Yes. The newly enlisted soldier was suppose to bring the razor set with them as Porter stated, and the ad has the razor set advertised in it. Gillette did contract with the Army to make them though.
 
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