chosera, shapton, sigma, coticule - need advice

[shaving_bear]

Hi all,

Honing newbie here. I've been researching stones here for quite awhile, and I'm almost ready to purchase my first kit. Problem is there are so many different ways to go about honing I don't quite know what the best option would be for me. My budget for a complete set is $350 at the high end; I'm pretty new to straight razors in general but I'm looking at this first purchase as an investment for the long run. My intention is to have all the tools necessary to take a general vintage ebay razor to shave ready. I would like to eventually be able to buy/restore/resell razors from ebay as a hobby, and a quality hone method is vital.

So, to the nitty-gritty.

I'm leaning towards the Chosera 1000 + a good coticule, since it seems to be the most cost efficient and high quality way to get a good hone. I was even thinking maybe a 12-13k finisher with that might be a good choice. The question from there is what type of coticule to get? I'll have the 1000, so a coticule to take me from 3- 8/10/12k would be good choice I think. So many options, do you have any opinions?

My other option is to go with the full progression of synths. The cheapest way to do this would be to go with a set, and there's a shapton 1,5,8 set I was looking at. I would just need a finishing stone with that one. I would like get the chosera 1000, but getting stones individually would raise my costs by a lot. I've been seeing that the sigma 13k is a really good finishing stone, but I'm just not sure what to get.

I was also looking at things like the trans Arkansas and thuringian/escher, but I think as a newb it would be better to stick with something cheaper for now.

Any advice or opinions would be appreciated. I'm leaning towards a really good quality coticule type stone, and I wouldn't be opposed to spending a little more money as long as it's legit.

Thanks for reading,

shave bear

 

[Gamma]

Whatever system you buy will probably work fine.

You may find, after learning the stone, that a high-grit finisher isn't needed after the Coticule.

The 1k C is a fine stone, so is the Shapton pro 1.5k. I prefer the Chosera but the Shapton is quite good.
Most 1k stones will get you 'there' - plenty of razors have had their bevel set on many different types of 1ks.

As for what Coti to get - start shopping around. See what turns up. Most Coticules work very well and until you've developed your own preferences there's no way to know what you'll like/not like.

Synths are great options to work with. Contrary to popular pontification, they are not inherently easier to learn.
They work well once you learn them - just like any system.

Some people prefer one type of system over another (natural vs synth) though - only way to dial in that preference is to try both.

The Chosera 10k is not a beginners stone. Normally, I never say such things but that particular stone takes a good amount of work/practice/understanding to get to max on it. It's a lovely finisher - but it's a demanding stone that requires an extremely deft touch. It does not polish like a Nani 12k SS so people misread it all the time. If you are married to a high-polish on the bevel, the 10/12k SS will give you that. Polished bevels don't mean much though - so there's that.

 

[shaving_bear]

Thanks for the tips! I was looking at it and for the synthetics, the most cost effective kit would be the shapton 1/5/8 combo and either the shapton single 15k stone or naniwa ss 12k from chefknivestogo.com. That would put me around $340. A little pricey. My other best option, chosera 1000k with a coticule from thesuperiorshave.com would come out around $240-$260. I think I would prefer the set of synth stones just because with zero experience it's nice to have the honing steps clearly set out, but saving $100 by going with the coticule is very appealing.

 

[buca3152]

I dont think you have a lapping plate or stone on your list. You could just use a glass plate with wet dry like 600 grit or a dmt 325c which is around $50ish. Your setup sounds good to me. I never used shaptons so someone else could tell you if the 325 is good for that, i dont see why not but ask someone who knows first.

 

[Gamma]

I misunderstood - thought you were contemplating the 10k Chosera as a finisher.

Honing is honing. Edge development is edge development.
Some people learn naturals fast, others not so much. Some learn synths fast - others struggle with them.

There are no rules - everyone's path is their own. When I started - I learned my Coti along side Synths.
There's a million stories, just go with what your gut tells you.

suggestion to ponder;

1k C, 3/8k Naniwa SS combo, 12k SS, 8" 220/325 DMT duo. Done.

 

[California Cajun]

Among those you have mentioned, I have used the Shaptons and I'm sold on them. Other members are equally sold on other stones.

It's hard to corral the price on honing equipment unless you use something like a King 1k, Norton 4k/8k, and a 12000 grit Chinese stone from a quarry in Guanxi province which is known for its uniform consistency as your finisher. This is the set I started out with as a beginner. Either my inexperience, the stones, or both factors didn't give me the kind of feedback I wanted that I had properly sharpened the razor and I often re-honed after an unsatisfactory shave. Perhaps now with 3 1/2 years experience I'd get more positive results.

The Shaptons get the job done faster and I have more of a feel when the razor's edge is ready. Unfortunately, Shaptons, and comparable stones are more expensive.

I would try to determine how committed you are to learn straight razor shaving and invest accordingly. Straights had me hook, line, and sinker from the beginning so I knew I was going to get my money's worth. Shaving has progressed into a hobby for me.

If you can't afford a synthetic set now and really want it, you can temporarily send out your razors for honing and defer your purchase until you can buy quality stones. If I wasn't on the road so much I'd be glad to hone your razors free of charge, but now I'm only home every other weekend at most.

 

[shaving_bear]

Ah yes I forgot, if I am getting a synth stone I would need a lapper. I think the sandpaper route would be okay, you think it would be alright to use with a piece of 2x4 instead of a glass plate? I'm not opposed to the dmt, but it is an extra expense. I'm looking at this as an investment in the long run, so while I'm trying to keep things at a low cost, I'm still trying to keep the products quality. I was thinking about the 3k/8k naniwa combo, but I was thinking that it would be better to get a set of individual stones, as they would be thicker, which is preferable. I was also thinking about sending at least one razor off for a real professional honing, so I have an example to work off of, but that's an extra $18-20 on the big sites.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Given your budget, I might recommend the Sigma 1k > 6k > 13k package deal that Stuart at toolsfromjapan has. It also includes a 400 Atoma for lapping that can be used for chips as well. Just be sure to soak the stones briefly and use them in a dampened state rather than with standing water. ~$240 plus shipping from Japan.

 

[ouch]

Before dropping any significant coin, you may want to start slow to see if this is really something you'll enjoy doing. You can try my micro-mini kit (a Shapton 1K GlassStone and some film, which attaches to the back of the stone) then move up to the mini kit by adding a coticule. Don't worry so much about the super high grits- it's more important to learn to set a good bevel that will respond to further polishing.

 

[shaving_bear]

thanks for showing that set! how does the sigma compare to chosera/shapton? It's a nice set but shipping it here is nearly $50. Also is it okay to go from a 1000-6000-13000 like that? I don't want to cut any corners on a good hone. I do feel a little wary of spending a lot of money on something I never tried before, but I'm reasonably sure that I'm going to love it, and I know if I start off with something cheaper I'll wish I had spent more money on a really good quality set from the start

 

[Gamma]

There really is no risk in buying hones - unless you overpay, you can usually get back your investment fairly easy.
In the bigger picture - buying what makes you happy might encourage you to hone more often.

W/D on a plate works fine - dunno that a 2x4 is a good idea. The support should be really flat. Wood isn't an ideal substance here.
While a DMT seems like an added cost, it's also something that will remove variables (paper not flat, etc) and like the rest of the tools they liquidate fairly easy. I find the simplicity of a diamond plate too good to pass up. I don't finish lap with them but when I need to take a good amount of stone off I don't want to go through a ton of paper. Whatever works though - as long as the stone ends up flat.

The 3/8 combo is less thick than single stones, but truthfully - unless you're honing for a living I don't see you wearing it out any time soon. But yes - single stones are thicker and in a long-term view they're a better deal most of the time.

don't get caught up in the numbers game - one brand's 8k might be another brand's 12k.
Something to think about - using hones that a lot of ohter people have may offer more avenues for insight when things get sticky.

 

[shaving_bear]

Maybe I have been thinking about this in the wrong way budget wise. I know I'm going to be using these enough, if not in extremely near future then in the slightly distant future, so putting some leeway in the budget for a dmt plate and 4 synth stones might be a better choice. Maybe the chosera 1/3/5 and either a shapton 15 or naniwa ss 12. I know I'll get a coticule at some point, just like people have been saying I won't know what I like the most till I try.

 

[Alum of Potash]

thanks for showing that set! how does the sigma compare to chosera/shapton? It's a nice set but shipping it here is nearly $50. Also is it okay to go from a 1000-6000-13000 like that? I don't want to cut any corners on a good hone. I do feel a little wary of spending a lot of money on something I never tried before, but I'm reasonably sure that I'm going to love it, and I know if I start off with something cheaper I'll wish I had spent more money on a really good quality set from the start

The Sigma Power series are ceramic water-stones. I believe Choseras are of this variety as well, although I haven't used Choseras (or Shaptons for that matter, which are a different beast--I'd try Spydercos before I'd try Shaptons myself). According to Stuart of toolsfromjapan's explanations, the Sigma stones are capable of big jumps like these. I spent a little more and picked up the 1.2k instead of the 1k as given. Using them briefly soaked and dampened (no standing water on the surface, especially at the end), 1.2k to 6k to 13k is no problem, and works very fast. ~20 mins. from start to finish. So, as the stones cut fast, the main risk for the beginner is to introduce damage just as fast. But it's a great deal including the diamond lapping plate; top-of-the-line as far as Japanese synths are concerned. Stuart's write-ups and videos are quite informative as well.

If you wanted to play it cautious and slow and just dip your toe in the water for starters--which may be an advisable course of action after all--I'd recommend grabbing a 6x2 coarse DMT duo-sharp for lapping and a 1.2k/8k King combo and a piece of leather with abrasive paste on it, to see if the whole thing is for you or not. It's the Indian and not the arrow, as the saying goes; and who knows, maybe that's all you'd need in the end.

 

[shaving_bear]

Okay, I think that the sigma set will be my most likely pic! Some final questions though, in your opinion, should I go with the 400 or 600 atoma plate? I was reading on here that some believe nothing less than a 600 is necessary, but at this point I know it's just personal preference. Second, whats the difference between the normal (hard) sigma 1000 and the select II 1200? Is one going to be better for honing razors? and lastly, how do the sigmas compare to chosera? I don't think I'll be going with chosera but I'm interested just out of curiosity. I'm still really interested in the coticule and natural stones, but I think it'll be better to start with the synth set, then add the natural stone after I get more comfortable. Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it and I don't think I could have made a well-educated choice without it.

 

[buca3152]

I have an atoma 400 and 1200, the 400 is a little rough for your higher grit stones imo. I know nothing about sigmas so I wont comment on those.

 

[jpcwon]

I have the 400, 600 and 1200 Atomas. Buca is right; the 400 is a little rough/aggressive and may leave scratches in your stone. It's good if you're lapping a stone for the first time though as it's pretty fast.... The 600 is almost just as fast as the 400 though, and is much more tame IMO....I hardly ever use the 400 TBH; mostly I use the 600 and the 1200 is the one that gets the most use...

One thing you can do is order the 1200 plate, and get a 600 replacement sheet. That way you can stick the replacement sheet to the back of the 1200 so you have a "double-sided" plate...I did this with my 400 & 600 and it works excellent! You can order the replacement sheets from toolsfromjapan.com.... http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_462_464

 

[Alum of Potash]

Okay, I think that the sigma set will be my most likely pic! Some final questions though, in your opinion, should I go with the 400 or 600 atoma plate? I was reading on here that some believe nothing less than a 600 is necessary, but at this point I know it's just personal preference. Second, whats the difference between the normal (hard) sigma 1000 and the select II 1200? Is one going to be better for honing razors? and lastly, how do the sigmas compare to chosera? I don't think I'll be going with chosera but I'm interested just out of curiosity. I'm still really interested in the coticule and natural stones, but I think it'll be better to start with the synth set, then add the natural stone after I get more comfortable. Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it and I don't think I could have made a well-educated choice without it.

I have the Atoma 400 that came with the Sigma Power set. It's included there, for lapping them, in the toolsforjapan package. No problem with scratches from my end, works fine--scratches would lie below the surface anyway. I would not want to lap the bevel-setter with anything higher, but yeah, you can put a higher grit on the other side. In any case, the nice thing about the Atoma 400 is that it can also be used for blades with chips. The next step up is the bevel-setter--1k or 1.2k? Either one should be fine. I just went with the 1.2k because Stuart described it as being an improvement over the 1k and some folks had spoken highly of it on the forums as a bevel-setter. Your call here. I'm sure the 1k is fine.

The main question is the use of natural stones later. Most of the naturals ranging from ~5k on up, a seasoned honer dedicated to naturals might prefer the Suehiro 1k/3k combo, or the 1k Cerax/5k Suehiro "Rika", to be followed by the natural stones. In any case, the 1k or 1.2k Sigma bevel-setter followed by the 6k Sigma in the package will put you in range of the natural finishers, and you could play around with a nat in between the 6k and 13k when the time comes, or if you determine that something is needed in between.

Have a chat with Stuart about it, explaining your concerns. He's in the business after all, and very knowledgeable about his product.

Edit: the only account I've read where someone had used both Choseras and Sigmas came out in favor of Sigmas. I believe this person also felt that a 10k Sigma was needed between 6k and 13k, but I am not of this opinion. Use them dampened, not with standing water on the surface. Any talk of water washing up on the bevels of the blade here is nonsense, look at the trace of passage left on the stone instead. Perhaps the same is true for Choseras at 5k and 10k; I don't know as I haven't tried them.