Big brush makers or custom brush makers?

[Teddyboy]

I have had three custom made brushes made by artisans of great skill and reputation here on the boards. In each case, I found that the quality of the knot was inferior to the knots that come from the well-known and established badger brush makers.

My question is whether others have also experienced this difference or is there something wrong with my selection technique? Badger hair, supposedly, comes from only a few sources in China. So why would there be such a discrepancy?

Do the established brush makers get the best of the lot, and pay more for it?

What say you?

 

[duderubble]

I know absolutely nothing, but, I personally think it has less to do with the quality of the hair than it does with the craftsmanship of the knot itself. I believe all of the raw product comes from China, but not all the knots are constructed in China. Simpson is making their knots in-house. TGN knots and the like are shipped from China as knots, not hair or pelts.

 

[mblakele]

Maybe you could expand on what factors are important to you? Density? Backbone? Soft tips or scrubby ones? Appearance?

Rudy Vey offers knots made by Shavemac (badger) and Mühle (synthetic), as well as TGN badger and boar. In my experience the Shavemac D01 knots are up there with knots from Rooney or Simpson - different, but equally high quality. Shavemac ties their own knots.

I also think well of TGN finest XH. I have one purchased about a year ago that has fully hooked tips: ridiculously soft, without compromising on backbone. It is not quite as dense as my Rooney, Simpson, or Shavemac brushes: maybe machine-made vs hand-made limits density? But that is fine with me: overdense brushes can be difficult, and my TGN finest XH is dense enough.

 

[NSmalls]

I know absolutely nothing, but, I personally think it has less to do with the quality of the hair than it does with the craftsmanship of the knot itself. I believe all of the raw product comes from China, but not all the knots are constructed in China. Simpson is making their knots in-house. TGN knots and the like are shipped from China as knots, not hair or pelts.

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. Based on my limited knowledge, I believe this man is right.

 

[inspectoring]

I wonder if there is enough profit margin for someone to actually build the knots and in the process stand out amongst the brushmakers.

 

[GDCarrington]

I wonder if there is enough profit margin for someone to actually build the knots and in the process stand out amongst the brushmakers.

Well there can be profit and loss. You will have to have considerable experience and connections in order to fully source your own hairs and to make knots that are of high quality. That would take an investment that you may or may not be willing to make. Machine made knots are less expensive and hand made knots are more expensive in terms of labor cost. Hand made allows for greater grading and inspecting of hairs before developing the knot which can yield a far better knot but at a much higher price. Now I have had brushes made by the Majors names, Mid-Majors manes, and the Minors and no-names. Each has made some excellent knots and not so excellent knots in terms of fit function and shedding or the lack therof. The choice is up to you based on, as mblakele stated earlier, your personal preference in your selection.

 

[CFSoto]

I have had three custom made brushes made by artisans of great skill and reputation here on the boards. In each case, I found that the quality of the knot was inferior to the knots that come from the well-known and established badger brush makers.

My question is whether others have also experienced this difference or is there something wrong with my selection technique? Badger hair, supposedly, comes from only a few sources in China. So why would there be such a discrepancy?

Do the established brush makers get the best of the lot, and pay more for it?

What say you?

If what you want is great backbone and density,IMO,the absolute top notch producers are:1) Rooney(Stubby XLs) and 2) Simpson Chubby 2 and 3s) They perform superbly and hold up to constant use wonderfully well. I have several of both and it has been my experience that they rarely shed a hair! Well worth the steep price tag,IMO

Craig

 

[Icebear]

As with all things in life : You get what you pay for.

So what's wrong with a TGN finest for about 25% of the cost of a Semogue 2 band? I have both and I like both, just the TGN is a much better value for money. But that's a typical YMMV thing.

If you want the luxury feel and brand name sticker, you will have to pay a little bit extra for a Manchurian super 2-band. Most well known brands only sell a complete brushes and not the knots individually.
Exception : Shavemac knots in RV handles. I have never heard of any shedding issues with these knots.
Highly customizable and handmade in Germany if you care for that.

 

[Lando]

My D01 two band knot in my custom RV is incredible, equaling the quality of Simpson and Rooneys. I don't think mine has shed a single hair since I got it a couple years ago. And the knot shape is customizable, every face latherer should try a flat top!

 

[Teddyboy]

Rudy Vey offers knots made by Shavemac (badger) and Mühle (synthetic), as well as TGN badger and boar. In my experience the Shavemac D01 knots are up there with knots from Rooney or Simpson - different, but equally high quality. Shavemac ties their own knots.

I also think well of TGN finest XH. I have one purchased about a year ago that has fully hooked tips: ridiculously soft, without compromising on backbone. It is not quite as dense as my Rooney, Simpson, or Shavemac brushes: maybe machine-made vs hand-made limits density? But that is fine with me: overdense brushes can be difficult, and my TGN finest XH is dense enough.

I agree with Shavemac being terrific brushes, especially the D0-1 series. I was not including them in the "custom" brush-makers although they will make a brush according to your specs. However, I have ordered two XH finest and find them both inferior to the products from Rooney, Simpson and Shavemac.

 

[mblakele]

I agree with Shavemac being terrific brushes, especially the D0-1 series. I was not including them in the "custom" brush-makers although they will make a brush according to your specs. However, I have ordered two XH finest and find them both inferior to the products from Rooney, Simpson and Shavemac.

Please understand that I respect your opinion. But can you be more specific? What is it about your two TGN finest XH knots that makes them inferior to knots from Rooney, Simpson and Shavemac? Perhaps you could compare their density, softness of tips, backbone, or appearance? Which factors are most important to you?

If we agree to differ on TGN, and exclude Shavemac itself as too large of a producer, that still leaves at least two custom brushmakers who produce top-tier brushes: Rudy Vey using Shavemac knots, and M&F.

 

[Kyle 3 Pass]

I bought a custom that after a month or so of use, it sheds hair every shave. It's a TGN knot. I just used it today and it probably shed 25 hairs. Very soft, but just a poor knot.

I already have decided to stick with big brand name makers.

 

[Icebear]

I bought a custom that after a month or so of use, it sheds hair every shave. It's a TGN knot. I just used it today and it probably shed 25 hairs. Very soft, but just a poor knot.

I already have decided to stick with big brand name makers.

There is a distinct difference about shedding:
A) Shedding of loose hair that is not caught in the glue.
This happens from the beginning and usually at some point all loose hair is gone and the shedding stops.

B) Shedding caused by degradation of hair inside the knot. This is caused by improper care and mishandling. Usually soap is not completely washed out and the knot is not properly drying after use. Bacteria start to grow in such a cozily wet environment and will start to break down the hair which consequently breaks off from inside the knot and falls out.

 

[fuzinboston]

I have several custom brushes, both knotted, and blank so I can knot them. I do like having my own knots but the other custom brushes all work fine, however maybe not as hard as I would like.

 

[Teddyboy]

Please understand that I respect your opinion. But can you be more specific? What is it about your two TGN finest XH knots that makes them inferior to knots from Rooney, Simpson and Shavemac? Perhaps you could compare their density, softness of tips, backbone, or appearance? Which factors are most important to you?

If we agree to differ on TGN, and exclude Shavemac itself as too large of a producer, that still leaves at least two custom brushmakers who produce top-tier brushes: Rudy Vey using Shavemac knots, and M&F.

The Finest XH knots were, IMHO, not having enough backbone. Two of the 3 knots had a surprisingly large amount of scritch, although one did not. In the case of the latter knot, perhaps setting it at a much lower loft would have sufficed, but I cannot know for sure.

 

[redrako]

Add in the variable that all brush manufacturers, large and custom, buy different lots of hair or knots. This means that there will be some variability in the quality of the hair. or knot. For example look at some of the threads about the very popular Simpson Best grade of hair. Some folks report super soft tips while others report scratchy annoying knots. Same holds true for TGN finest knots.

The fact is that collecting natural hair such as badger hair is a time and labor intensive process that may not always turn out a product that may be as good as other lots.

 

[mblakele]

Excellent point: we could also talk about the distinctly different batches of Rooney heritage that have been reported. Unfortunately it is very difficult for us consumers to track these changes.

 

[Loric]

While some of the most high dollar brushes have knots that customs (generally) cant match. Most are only slightly better, if at all. In fact when you properly tune your custom knots, they can be better IMO.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/308884-How-to-tune-your-knots-loft-before-you-set-them

In my den, I have some $450 brushes sitting next to some $30~$60 customs, that I tuned the knots of. I love them all just about equally. Granted some of the high dollar brushes are slightly more dense, and have more exotic characteristics. However, the ergonomic custom handles, and perfectly tuned knots make up for almost ever last of that difference.

Just the thoughts of someone very picky, and very tuned into my own tastes. YMMV.

 

[brucered]

As Loric said, a lot depends on how the knot is set and how good he current batch of hair is.

my first TGN does not get used much as I didn't know what I know now about setting. My current TGN finest is as good as any brush in my den. It's set perfectly and is soft and has decent backbone with no scrub or scritch. Also as stated above, batch to batch makes some of these TGN knots as good as the top tier name brand brushes and some probably not even close.

I think a lot has to do with our own Brand favouritism too, and what we pay for these brushes and us not wanting to admit a $50 brush can be as good or better then a $170-200 brush. The TGN knots are usually stuck in generic handles or restores that cost very little, so we don't expect them to be on par with $200 brushes from Simpson, Shavemac and Rooney or we just don't want to admit it.

In a blind brush test, I bet a lot of people would be happy with a TGN knot stuck in a Simpson or other big name brush makers handle and probably would not know the difference.

 

[Teddyboy]

I am grateful for the thoughtful responses and food for thought. As far as Simpson goes, all five of the best badger knots that I have are excellent to me, so, shedding aside, Simpsons has been consistently excellent. As is Shavemac and Rooney Heritage. I have had some clunkers from "non-custom" makers - Thaters and a Rooney super 3-band, for example, both flop-mops. Perhaps the knots obtained by the custom brush vendors are just not dense enough for my taste.

P.S. I would love a $50 brush to be as satisfying as a $200 brush...trust me on this one.