Bevel Angle and Effect on Shaving for a Newbie

[rbscebu]

I have a few SR's in my rotation and their bevel angles vary from a bit under 16° to a bit over 18°. They all shave very well and can produced whatever desired result that I want with about the same effort.

What I have found is that SR's with the greater bevel angles are more forgiving to those slight lapses of concentration while shaving. If advising a new person to SR shaving, I would suggest that they get a SR with a bevel angle of somewhere between 17.5° and 18.5°. Once they have developed their technique, they can then venture into blades with a more acute bevel

 

[camoloc]

I like around this range as well.

equally important is at what angle a newb holds the razor while shaving too. 1/2 spine thickness off the face, the notorious 30 deg., etc.

these days I'm often a spine rider on a lot of areas. important to realize that these two factors affect the shave and perception of efficiency, comfort, smoothness, etc.

camo

 

[global_dev]

Interesting proposition, not sure I’ve ever really seen a razor for sale that really described bevel angle. Outside of one vendor who used to provide more details most give basic width. Id guess Most people dont own a vernier caliper to check what they are selling or buying.

I’m not sure how i would feel about selling razors to a new SR user who asked specifically about bevel angle who i didnt know absolutely well. Sounds like a problematic recipe for expectation issues, measurement problems, and a host of other issues.

 

[JPO]

In my opinion the best way to tailor your edge is to choose a suitable edge finish. Different finish for different grinds for different circumstances. A more acute bevel angle should be able to cut as efficient as a more obtuse bevel angle with a slightly more forgiving apex profile. It is like a Feather pro blade. A thinner profile will/can cut beard better or just as well with a more forgiving edge.
A new user should find their benchmark for when a razor starts to shave comfortably. For me this is an 8k or a coticule edge. Then you can add the refinement you prefer on top of that. Maybe just a few strokes on your finisher is enough.

 

[rbscebu]

@global_dev I agree that it is almost impossible to find a new SR that is marketed stating the (even approximate) bevel angle. Fortunately we have here on B&B SR owners who own most new SR's and some can measure bevel angles. There is also the B&B review section for SR's that may include a blade's bevel angle.

There are of course many other particulars of a SR that a newbie needs to consider when selecting his first SR. In this thread I am mainly concerned about bevel angle.

 

[steveclarkus]

Bevel angle is easy enough on a razor but I believe reputable razor makers will have a proper angle. The problem with previously owned razors is that they have been regularity elevated spines making the bevel angle too obtuse. A good reason for not using tape when honing because the spine isn’t being reduced at the same rate as the edge as a razor is designed to do.

 

[rbscebu]

Bevel angle is easy enough on a razor but I believe reputable razor makers will have a proper angle. The problem with previously owned razors is that they have been regularity elevated spines making the bevel angle too obtuse. A good reason for not using tape when honing because the spine isn’t being reduced at the same rate as the edge as a razor is designed to do.

I agree but some reputable razor makers believe that a proper bevel angle is about 16° to 17°. This is probably not ideal for a newbie.

 

[steveclarkus]

@Slash McCoy has written a lot on the subject. Perhaps he can chime in.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I have always felt that the bevel angle determines much of the underlying character of the blade. In particular, the level of aggressiveness, in general. You can put a Method edge on a razor with an 18.5° bevel angle, and the same edge treatment on a razor with a 15.5° bevel angle, and certainly notice a difference. You can put a raw coticule edge on both, and the skinny bevel will maybe shave okay, and the fat one will require a lot of handling skill, as well as two or three passes, to get an acceptable shave. It really does make a difference. I don't mean a tenth of a degree or a couple of tenths. Talking like a half degree, minimum, to be really noticeable, and a full degree or more is usually quite noticeable. Compare a Henckels 401 with a 15° bevel to a ZY430 at almost 20 degrees and the Henky will act like a wildcat on meth and dust, and the ZY will feel like a fat girl on quaaludes. (remember those?) One will cut anything it sees, including skin if you aren't very careful. The other would be great for spreading PB on the PB&J and will barely shave if you get a really really good edge on it. Am I exaggerating? Not by much.

A raw newbie might get along very very well, with a Gold Dollar that has been well honed. Might? No, I know it for a fact. And we are talking about 18° or thereabouts. A more experienced shaver will find it shaves okay but maybe nothing special, unless he simply has never experienced a method edge. The discriminating shaver might not be satisfied with anything fatter than 17°.

You can't really compare two razors of different geometry, when they haven't been similarly honed. Within a reasonable range of bevel angles, the honing quality matters more than a slight difference in angle. Or, maybe not. YMMV.

I used to get quite upset with folks who insist on taping the spine of a razor to "save" it. Oh, misguided fools! But should it matter to me? I think not so much. I have presented my views on measuring, and using or not using tape as called for by the razor's existing geometry. My posts are out there for anybody to see. Read and heed, or call them utter hogswallop, it's all the same to me. My mentoring track record stands up for itself. Your razor, tape if you want. It takes so long to make a difference that I will likely be dead before I can regularly chime in and say, "I TOLD you so!" But like all things razor, one should THINK a little, especially about what is proven to work and whose advice has actually had an immediate beneficial effect and not. I say don't tape unless you have a mathematical and practical reason. If you want your razor to forever remain in like new condition, then that means you can't hone it at all. Think about that.

 

[rbscebu]

@Slash McCoy appears to generally agree with my OP that a more obtuse bevel angle (17.5° to 18.5°) is probably better for a newbie to SR shaving. I also agree with Mr McCoy that the blade's edge needs to be exceedingly keen (a Method edge).

This week I have been shaving with my English M7DS. All blades in this set have bevel angles of about 17.5° and diamond pasted balsa edges. Five days in and every shave has been very close and comfortable. Next week I will be shaving with my almost complete "Bengall" M7DS. I know that they will give me similar results but will tell me if my concentration lapses even just a little.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I've had a few razors that came in around 15 or 15.5 degrees, and they definitely benefitted from tape. The odd one here is an Engstrom that is actually *under* 15 degrees for at least a third of its length. And yes, it was pretty harsh and a little bloodthirsty. But as it's settled in to the method, it's smoothed out significantly. Definitely requires a light touch and low angle but it's one of my nicest shavers now.

Probably the most obtuse I have is my Herder which Matt at Griffith honed with 8.5 mil tape putting it between 17.5 and 18 and it shaves great, too.

 

[global_dev]

I dont disagree with any of the above, i’m just gonna put out there that a new to straights shaver with less than 0-5 shaves worrying about bevel angle is really something new to me. Perhaps its the new new… things and time do change.

I spent some measuring bevel angles and finishes, i’m not sure for me the juice was worth the squeeze although it was interesting, it wasnt relevatory except on the extremes and even then i didnt want to deal with the razors that were at the extremes.

 

[JPO]

If the "best" bevel angle is a more obtuse bevel angle for a beginner, then a Feather pro super should be the perfect blade. The bevel angle (there is three bevels) is around 19 deg, measured from the second bevel, with an apex width that is quite small. I have found these blades to cut skin allot better then beard. They also tug more then a well honed SR. Not the best combination for a new user.
A typical SR with a bevel angle of 16-17 deg is/can be significantly sharper (cut more efficient) with the same apex width as the Feather blade, because of the smaller thickness behind the apex, and still be more forging on the skin.
To me it makes more sense to take advantage of the bevel angle the steel can hold and increase the skin comfort and durability of the edge by a comfortable finisher.
Recommending new users to add multiple layers of tape to increase comfort is in my opinion not the right approach.
Off course the steel needs to be able to support the bevel angle, but that is a different topic.
There is also a bigger chance a new user might ruin the edge by shaving with a too steep angle. In that case he is probably better off having a more obtuse bevel angle, but that is for a different reason again.
I think that different grinds and blade size also makes a difference. An extra hollow ground razor would probably not be something i could handle starting out, and i do not think two layers of tape would help me shave better with that blade.

 

[global_dev]

An extra hollow ground razor would probably not be something i could handle starting out, and i do not think two layers of tape would help me shave better with that blade.

hopefully a nw SR shaver isn't gonna read the above completely out of context. I know pulling it out of the rest of the post isn't helping that, but I can just imagine someone getting a new razor - put on 2 layers of tape immediately (not unlike a DE shim to shave) and wondering why shaving with straights is kinda difficult at first. however, i'd love to see it in a post, kind of like the DE safety guard out on upside down.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

On the obtuse bevel end of the spectrum, I forgot about a Dahlgren frameback I have that was about 20 degrees. I didn't measure it post honing, but I did have to be pretty aggressive with it due to the complex edge profile (smiley toe, straight heel tending towards a frown). I'm sure it's more acute than that now but nowhere near 16 degrees. Spoiler, it shaves really nicely too.

 

[Biltong & Boerewors]

I think the less experience you have, the sharper the blade should be. Less tugging and jumping should equal less chance of cutting yourself or applying too much pressure. Even what we would consider very dull razor edge is still way sharper than most kitchen knives and can push-cut skin easily.

I started with half DE shavettes and got by with a few nicks and irritations, but when I tried a less than excellent SR edge for the first time, it was pure hell and I gave up very quickly.

If we then extrapolate that to bevel angles, less should be better, within reason of course. I have found the 16.5 degree @Slash McCoy recommends very comfortable and smooth, and not bitey at all.

 

[Biltong & Boerewors]

Calculating bevel angles are easy with this calculator:

Wedgek Angle Calculator - Calculate Knife Grind and Bevel Angles

Grind and Bevel Angle Calculator - by Wedgek

www.wedgek.com

You don't need a Vernier - You can just take a photo of your razor grind profile, measure the distances either on your phone or on your computer monitor with a ruler, and put the measurements in the calculator. When you work with angles the size doesn't matter, the relation between the sizes determine the angle.

A is the distance between where the razor makes contact with the hone and the edge.
B is the width of the spine.
C will be 0 or nothing because we are measuring a single bevel.

You double the result and that will give you your bevel angle.

In this case I measured a GD66 that I tried a few ideas on and the result is 8.6x2=17.2 degrees.

 

[rbscebu]

Not quite correct @Biltong & Boerewors.
The dimension "A" should be to the actual edge and not just to the top of the bevel as shown.

​

 

[Biltong & Boerewors]

Not quite correct @Biltong & Boerewors.
The dimension "A" should be to the actual edge and not just to the top of the bevel as shown.

View attachment 1365901​

Like I explained, and showed on my razor?

A is the distance between where the razor makes contact with the hone and the edge.

The calculator is designed for knives, but works for razors as well, with a few tweaks.

 

[JPO]

https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/attachments/bevel_angle_calculation-zip.1351859/