Baffled!

[wdwrx]

I'm freakin' baffled...
I was trying (again) to hone up my "practice" razor, sailing along fine (I've got so many hours in humping my hones that the muscle memory is set now) started again at 1k, banged up through to 8K... shave hairs off my arm no problem, TPT feels good and sticky, move up to the C12k, 60 or 80 laps, every lap perfect, feather light touch, light slurry diluted as I go, feels good, .... except now it won't shave hairs any more... ***!?!? This same routine worked wonders on the Torrey I restored last week, but just doest seem to work on this razor......
Any ideas what's going on? Could I be "over-honing"?

 

[azmark]

I'm freakin' baffled...
I was trying (again) to hone up my "practice" razor, sailing along fine (I've got so many hours in humping my hones that the muscle memory is set now) started again at 1k, banged up through to 8K... shave hairs off my arm no problem, TPT feels good and sticky, move up to the C12k, 60 or 80 laps, every lap perfect, feather light touch, light slurry diluted as I go, feels good, .... except now it won't shave hairs any more... ***!?!? This same routine worked wonders on the Torrey I restored last week, but just doest seem to work on this razor......
Any ideas what's going on? Could I be "over-honing"?

Normally I would have said the TPT would blunt the blade but you did it before you finished it, so no problem there. A C12K cuts too slow to really do much damage but it would depend on your razor (steel). Was this a wedge of sort?

The only time I run into this is when I progress to quickly from bevel setter to mid/course hone to sharpening and polishing. Sometimes blades are finicky and if you move to the next hone you may have this problem. If you have a Norton 4/8 combo try a pyramid starting with 15 strokes instead of 25. It's worth a shot since you'll have to start over (sorry).

 

[wdwrx]

Thanks for the reply Azmark,
No Nortons here, Japanese synthetic 1,4,8K and C12 K. No wedge, just a generic Solingen 5/8 full hollow.
She seemed to be really good until the 12k.
Since I've ever only honed one other blade sucesfully I'm no kind of expert, but it "felt" right before I moved up to the 12 k. BWTHDIK? I've spent so much time on this finicky blade that I'm sure the bevel is good (I probably didn't need the 1k) It seemed to feel pretty good on the 12k, but that stone doesn't seem to offer much feedback, but maybe that's typical at that grit. I figured I was safe to bang out 100 laps without creating a wire edge. And I didn't do even that many.
What confuses me is that at the 8k it was almost sharp enough to shave with, but 60/80 laps later it wasn't.
Does the pyramid really work? It seems so counter-intuitive: I've sanded enough wood in my life, I would never consider going back in grit to try to get a smoother finish. But maybe I'm trying to compare apples to oranges.
Worth a try; nothing to lose, except a little elbow grease.

 

[holli4pirating]

TPT will not dull a blade, if you do it properly.

An edge should feel sticky sharp off the 1k, then, I find, off a 4 or 5k it will actually feel duller, but that is because the stickyness is gone and yet the edge doesn't feel "holy *#*@# this is sharp" yet. From there on up, the edge will feel more like "If I press any harder, this will cut me." Unfortunately, the only way to calibrate TPT is to know that you are getting your edges where they need to be off every hone and then touch them. Early on, you can do this by sitting with someone who knows how to hone and touching their edges in between each hone. This is part of why I put so much emphasis on attending meets or finding a honing buddy.

Also, I never use slurry on a finishing hone. The C12k is slow, and, IMO, you just have to deal with that fact. I would rather take the time to do the extra laps than play with slurry. On a finisher, all I want is to refine and polish the edge, and using a slurry is not ideal for this task.

Beyond that, there isn't too much that comes to mind reading your post.

 

[wdwrx]

Thanks Holi4pirating, I was hoping you'd jump in
What baffles me is that it went backwards.
I didn't use much slurry, it's pretty hard to work much up anyways, and I diluted it as i went until there wasn't really any there at all, pretty much just water for the last 30 or 40 laps. I'd have done more laps but it wasn't doing much good. At least on the Arm Hair Test.
Could the edge be breaking down? How would I know?
Just as an aside, the exact same procedure worked in a fraction of the time with a different razor, none of this weirdness.
Maybe I'll try it on the Spydees.

 

[holli4pirating]

Unfortunately, different people feel and describe things differently, so this sort of thing is extremely difficult to diagnose over the internet. The best I think anyone could offer is to hone blades off a 1k, 4k, 8k, and finisher so you would have them as references.

I really mean what I said about meets. When I went to a meet in NYC and did honing demos, I passed around razors at every stage so those present could feel the edge. I was on Naniwas (1, 5, 8, and then I think my Asagi), and everyone felt the 1k and said "Oh, I feel that." Then the 5k - first reaction was "This feels duller..." That is why I always say each test needs to be calibrated.

 

[wdwrx]

Oh I get that. Book learnings one thing, but there's nothing like first hand experience. Unfortunaltley the closest guy around is a 2 hour drive away. I live in the booneys! I'm going to try setting up a session with Sebell (my "local" honemeister, and a fellow B&B'er, but that would be weeks away if he's even available)
I just ran the blade through on my Spydees.... night and day! AHT, HHT, flying colors!
100 laps each on fine and UF (maybe more) I actually counted them (not something my attention span lends itself to!)

I'm even more baffled. It seems this blade doesn't like the J-syns but responds well to the spyderco hones. WTH?

 

[azmark]

I just ran the blade through on my Spydees.... night and day! AHT, HHT, flying colors!
100 laps each on fine and UF (maybe more) I actually counted them (not something my attention span lends itself to!)

I'm even more baffled. It seems this blade doesn't like the J-syns but responds well to the spyderco hones. WTH?

My UF was my go to for a long time and is still probably the best edge I've used.

Some blades are just that finicky. I have a Sheffield that was not taking anything off of Spyderco's and Norton but worked perfectly off of coticules and Jnats. You just have to experiment with them.

 

[wdwrx]

update: Spydees ROCK!
Without having shaved with either one (yet) I think I'm getting this!

After I honed my practice blade to HHT #? I decided to try my W&B 6/8-7/8... I love smily blades... this one was fun. The next time a honemeister tells me he wants extra for a smiling blade I'm gonna cry "foul!" The motions were totally smooth and natural, I was totally in the zone!

This time it all came together... (qualify that; i haven't shaved with either blade yet) but the initial signs look really good. The best yet.

 

[wdwrx]

My UF was my go to for a long time and is still probably the best edge I've used.

Some blades are just that finicky. I have a Sheffield that was not taking anything off of Spyderco's and Norton but worked perfectly off of coticules and Jnats. You just have to experiment with them.

I hadn't been playing around much with the spydees, I was trying to learn one set of hones at a time.

I've really been battling that little blade... wish I'd tried different hones a little earlier.

Now I'm feeling the itch for a coti

 

[wdwrx]

Update:
wow. not WOW!, but not too shabby. Anyone with a less coarse beard would definatly be able to shave with the W&B I just did. I didn't even try the other one, the one I started this thread about, things were going so well with the W&B i just couldn't be bothered.

I'd say it was about half as sharp as my Elski done on Shapton's 30k. I had to finish with a DE (my first ever full pass with one) but I'm definatly on the right path.

Now how do I get it even sharper?

 

[oldshaver.org]

If anyone cares to finish with a CH12K with slurry, a slurry can be had using pumice stone or rotten stone available from most old fashioned hardware stores.

Rotten stone is also ideal for polishing hand-rubbed oil finishes on gunstocks.

Good stuff....................

 

[Rik]

You may want to invest in a 10x triplet jeweler's loupe or a dissection microscope. Without a doubt these items reduced the time it took me to learn how to properly hone; The immediate feedback was invaluable. I would compare my progress to a razor that had been honed by a honemeister. That being said, generations of guys have successfully mastered the craft without these tools, I'm just sharing what worked for me.

 

[Chimensch]

I have read a series of posts on the Italian shaving forum "Il Rasoio" that say that the C12K should never be used with slurry because the slurry releases impurities from the stone that destroy the edge. I have no personal experience with this, just passing it on.

 

[mainaman]

did you try shave after the finishing hone?
also your practice razor is what brand? I did not see , or missed, the mention of it.

 

[wdwrx]

did you try shave after the finishing hone?
also your practice razor is what brand? I did not see , or missed, the mention of it.

Sorry for the confusion, I started the thread talking about a generic/obscure brand Solingen 5/8 F.H. I then went on about a W&B "shave ready" that really wasn't. I did shave with the W&B and not the other because I just like smiling blades so much! It was pretty sharp, just not sharp enough for the dense stubble on my Dudley Do-right chin

I have read a series of posts on the Italian shaving forum "Il Rasoio" that say that the C12K should never be used with slurry because the slurry releases impurities from the stone that destroy the edge. I have no personal experience with this, just passing it on.

Holi4pirating said the same thing.
From my limited experience with this razor on that hone, that seems to be my take on it too.
I wonder if my success with the Syderco hone was simply because I was using them dry, hence no slurry or even swarf.

You may want to invest in a 10x triplet jeweler's loupe or a dissection microscope. Without a doubt these items reduced the time it took me to learn how to properly hone; The immediate feedback was invaluable. I would compare my progress to a razor that had been honed by a honemeister. That being said, generations of guys have successfully mastered the craft without these tools, I'm just sharing what worked for me.

I already own a microscope, not a dissection microscope but a medical/lab grade, but it's a real PITB to set it up and the lights needed. I did use it a couple of times and it did prove invaluable, especially for setting the bevel and watching the scratches from each grit of hone. I guess I shouldn't have been so lazy A loupe seems like a good idea: quick and easy.

 

[Chimensch]

I wonder if my success with the Syderco hone was simply because I was using them dry, hence no slurry or even swarf.

I don't think that using the Spyderco dry is the issue. Every finishing hone that I have experience with uses water (in fact, water with a drop of liquid soap is even better). It's the fact that the C12K isn't really a honing quality stone. It has a very hard surface that abrades steel and does have a finishing effect but its structure is not suitable for slurry.

 

[wdwrx]

I don't think that using the Spyderco dry is the issue. Every finishing hone that I have experience with uses water (in fact, water with a drop of liquid soap is even better). It's the fact that the C12K isn't really a honing quality stone. It has a very hard surface that abrades steel and does have a finishing effect but its structure is not suitable for slurry.

I guess you get what you pay for.
I'm not sure if I know what you mean though. If i understand, it will function as a finisher, just use no slurry? Or, it's only a marginal stone anyways, good luck?

 

[wdwrx]

The cry of the Coti is getting louder and louder!

 

[azmark]

The cry of the Coti is getting louder and louder!

You'll soon have a post of "baffled part 2."

It was a big learning curve for me on the coti to the point of smashing it. Now it rocks