Arkansas or coticule

[gacord]

I'm a DE guy so far but have inherited a couple of old straights that I'm planning to restore and eventually start using. I'd like some opinions on whether to go with Arkansas stones or Belgians. I'm much more interested in a natural stone rather than a synthetic, otherwise, I'd probably look at the Norton's from what I've read so far. I'd also like to know about finishing. Is a belgian coticule sufficient for finishing too or do you need to finish on something finer. Same question with Arkansas transparent. Oh, and on the chance soemone champions Arkasnas stones... is water ok iwth those or is oil just "the way to go" with them?

Thanks and Cheers,
Gary

 

[Brooksie967]

Jnat, escher or 20k synthetic should be the question

 

[Krodor]

Boy, you're gonna get lotsa answers, but here's my take: I'd go coticule if you got it from someone who claimed that particular coti was straight forward to learn. I personally would not want to learn to hone and learn my coti at the same time. Get the skill first, and then the finesse. Thus I was very happy I went with norton 4k/8k + DMT d8c + strop for my start. I'd recommend that or lapping film+marble tile from home depot. Both pretty no-brainers to learn to hone on, then add to it with your natural of choice. Again, learn the skill, then the finesse.

Just my opinion.

Oh, and arks are oilstones. They work (if I read right, someone correct me if I'm wrong) by catching little protrusions of the steel in the pores as the steel is passed over them. Oil helps keep those pores clear, while water doesn't "release" the steel bits from the pores, so it gets clogged. This is also why arks improve with use, as *their* protrusions get worn away, allowing the pores to do their job at a "finer" level. It also follows then, that the smaller the pores, the more polish you get, which is exactly why arks are graded by specific gravity (density) and not normal grit size. All of this also implies that arks are rather slow and more passive to me, somehow...."yeah, lemme bite your knees off if you just come over here" vs a synthetic "imma scratch you silly with my tiny little grits of death, you heathen steel!"

Arguments can be made like this for many natural stones. Cotis have huge grit size for what edge they can leave , but that is due to the cool shape and make up of the natural grit ( 12-sided garnet crystals, iirc). The highly obtuse angles of those crystals and how they stick out of the matrix they are in while finishing (just barely), means their scratches are very shallow.

Now, if I'm wrong about this, someone will correct me, but I think that's all fairly close to right.

 

[Brooksie967]

A great alternative, and actually preferred to the norton 4/8 is the naniwa ss 3/8.

 

[Redhead]

My gentlest and best advice is to send the straights out to be honed by a pro and then try shaving with them and see if you like the experience. If you do like it invest in a good strop and learn to strop properly, after that you can start thinking about hones.
Red

 

[Gamma]

You don't need to use oil on a Translucent or a good 'hard' ark either. Water, water/soap, glycerine/water - all that works just fine.
Softer Arks will benefit from using oil, as mentioned above, by keeping the swarf fluid and preventing the stone from clogging.
As for which way to go - I say buy both and see what you like. Arks and Cotis are good stones.
Personally - I think you can take an edge pretty far with a Trans/SB Ark and if you learn that stone well you'll have a hard time finding a better finisher.
Coticules are more versatile - you can do most of the work on one stone, with Arks you'll need 2 or 3.
You can get a damn fine edge on a Coti - and yes it'll take skill/learning/effort to get 'there' but that's true with any honing solution.

 

[Slash McCoy]

First, learn to shave first. Trying to learn to shave with an edge you are trying to learn to hone is a recipe for ultimate gonzo frustration. Please don't try that. Really. I hope you won't be hardheaded and do it anyway because it will break your heart.

When you are ready to start honing, which should be only after you are comfortable with straight shaving, I strongly suggest film first. Look... start out with at least two shave ready straights. Either send yours out, or email Larry at www.whippeddog.com for a couple of his sight unseen whipped dogs, which are dirt cheap and not pretty but they will be shave ready. When one blade seems to be getting a little dullish, start learning how to retouch and how to do maintenance honing. This only requires one grade of film, 1u. Or a finishing stone. Maybe a 12k Naniwa Superstone, or a C12k. A simple, straightforward finisher. Film will be easier and give you way better results right off the block and film is really cheap to get started with.

A coticule is a lot of fun but a nice big one can be rather expensive, and there is a bit of work to learning how to use one effectively. However, maybe you could use a coti under running water as your maintenance hone. In that case you would not need to learn how to do a slurry dilution right off the bat. But me, I would not mess with the coticules just yet.

Arkies are a whole nother critter. They, too, have a considerable learning curve to getting the most out of them. They are also very very slow. On the plus side, they are way cheaper than a coti, sometimes cheaper than Nortons, but nowhere near as cheap as a film setup. However, the Arkie, like the similar Washita stone, is a true American hone so there is sort of a pride thing. Me, I like my film. Nothing compares with it.

Anyway, you only need to learn to do touchups and maintenance honing initially. Later, when you want to start messing with old junk razors or honing for others, get your bevel setter, repair stones, and intermediate grit stones, or films. You don't need to jump right in with a basket full of money.

Want to get into natural stones? I would say wait until you are really good with sinthetics first. A coti is very versatile, and very effective in knowledgeable hands. A Jnat and slurry stones can give very very good edges without any other stone for a finisher. There are other natural stones to try, too. But most of them, to get best results possible, do require a bit of learning and practice, compared to the easier methods. Crawl before walking. Walk before running. Take the bus if you don't feel athletic. Film is your bus. http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/283576-Lapping-film-try-it?highlight=lapping+film+try+it

 

[tomjr]

arki's are the way for me. soft hard translucent. i use mineral oil on them.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I love arks. I think they are fantastic stones that don't get a tenth the credit they deserve in our community. But I would never recommend a hard ark over a coticule as a first stone to someone who's just starting razor honing. Don't get me wrong, Arks aren't hard to use... but the truth is that properly honing on an arkansas requires an understanding of how to properly use and control PRESSURE... which seems to be almost a boogieman word around straight razors. Now you can use pressure with any stone, and as you get better you should. But, at least when I was starting out, pressure was all but a four letter word among people, and I'm still worried someone will start swearing at me if I ever suggest it... which is why I'm so enthused by guys like Paco who can make it a casual topic. And while I think the fear I've seen of it is taking it much too far, the truth is that properly honing an undamaged straight on stones without using pressure requires almost zero skill, and lets you get a very straightforward and gentle(?) introduction to it. So while you certainly CAN go another route to start out (many do), having a stone that is functional both with little to no pressure AND able to be used with pressure-controlled honing, like a coticule, can be a boon. Then once you're shaving off your coticule edges, by all means get a nice hard arkansas (Vintage, or surgical black/translucent modern) as your second stone and learn it to see if you prefer its finish after your coticule.

 

[xMackx]

Learning on synthetics is easier... You can try naturals after you learn how to put on a good edge. Just remember set the bevel set the bevel set the bevel (most of the work). This may sound different from some others, but don't be afraid to learn to hone. It only takes a couple months to learn the tricks then you're good for life and only get better. Most people are afraid to learn so they end up putting it off for a couple years. Nothing wrong with that but I say get a cheap beater razor to learn on and a synthetic like a norton 4/8 and dive in with both feet. In a way it's like learning a musical instrument, you wont get better until you start to practice.

 

[Gamma]

Honing is honing - synths/naturals, same thing. Either way is a good choice and in and of themselves, neither option is harder or easier to learn than the other. Arks and Cotis and Nortons all have their own liabilities to overcome. No stone is perfect.
Some people will gravitate toward or do better with one or the other - that's another story. But you can't know that until you try one or the other, or both.
It's not rocket science. Ypu dont need a degree in metallurgy or geology to sharpen a razor.
Non-scientists, non-tradesmen, and regular plain ole Joes have been doing it for centuries, most of which has occurred on some pretty 'subpar' gear too. Don't sweat perfection or the pseudoscience - just do it.
Honing is a fairly simple process that gets complicated for no good reason. Fear of this stone or that stone and stories about 15 stage progressions or whos got the best stone can paralyze a beginner. Not to mention 80 different people making 80 different recommendations about what to buy.
Doesnt matter - buy something and hone with it. Honing does require skill which requires practice for most of us - theres no getting around that. Don't get hung up on what's the best/right/wrong stone - what's right is getting started, what's wrong is overthinking it. Buy a stone, don't like it? Sell it and buy another, or keep both and eventually sell off the one you like less, or just keep them and maybe buy another. Seriously - it doesn't matter what you buy now - what matters is learning to hone, after that you can figure out what you like, don't like, do better with, etc.
A few cheap beater blades from eBay will go a long way. Killing one or two is a whole lot better than putting a huge flat on the spine of a new Boker or whatever.

 

[chuckr9]

Coticule (and some lapping film for bevel setting and work that is slow on the coticule)

 

[oakeshott]

Honing is honing - synths/naturals, same thing. Either way is a good choice and in and of themselves, neither option is harder or easier to learn than the other. Arks and Cotis and Nortons all have their own liabilities to overcome. No stone is perfect.
Some people will gravitate toward or do better with one or the other - that's another story. But you can't know that until you try one or the other, or both.
It's not rocket science. Ypu dont need a degree in metallurgy or geology to sharpen a razor.
Non-scientists, non-tradesmen, and regular plain ole Joes have been doing it for centuries, most of which has occurred on some pretty 'subpar' gear too. Don't sweat perfection or the pseudoscience - just do it.
Honing is a fairly simple process that gets complicated for no good reason. Fear of this stone or that stone and stories about 15 stage progressions or whos got the best stone can paralyze a beginner. Not to mention 80 different people making 80 different recommendations about what to buy.
Doesnt matter - buy something and hone with it. Honing does require skill which requires practice for most of us - theres no getting around that. Don't get hung up on what's the best/right/wrong stone - what's right is getting started, what's wrong is overthinking it. Buy a stone, don't like it? Sell it and buy another, or keep both and eventually sell off the one you like less, or just keep them and maybe buy another. Seriously - it doesn't matter what you buy now - what matters is learning to hone, after that you can figure out what you like, don't like, do better with, etc.
A few cheap beater blades from eBay will go a long way. Killing one or two is a whole lot better than putting a huge flat on the spine of a new Boker or whatever.

Not much to add here except this is almost exactly the path I took. Get some stones (or, angels and ministers of grace defend us,film), buy a bunch of beater blades and then start rubbing.

 

[gacord]

Thanks for all the comments fellas. Guess I'll just get these heirlooms cleaned up and then set aside and practice on a few beaters. The films look tempting guys but I'm as interested in the process as the results. Besides, part of the goal for me in moving to straights is to STOP buying consumables as much as possible. @Krodor and @Gamma, I dig your style, I tend to be a learn as you go old fart as it is...

Cheers again.