A gift from my dad

[drathgeb]

After noticing my interest in straight shaving my father gave me a razor he picked up some years back. It had been tucked away for quite a few years and has gathered some rust. Most polished off ok but the edge is pitted. Is there anything I can do to remedy this? Is this razor even quality enough to work on? I have seen some Winchester knives that were pretty poorly made. Here are some pics:






Appologies, I have never uploaded pics before and have a terrible camara.

 

[Kentos]

Depends how deep the pitting is. Only way to know for sure is to hone it up and look at the edge under magnification. My guess is that it looks ok.

 

[Oblique Human]

Pretty cool your dad. Nice razor.

 

[Slash McCoy]

hand sand until all the rust is gone, all the pitting from the edge area. Then it is ready for the bevel to be set. If you have some rubber hose laying around, you can use that as a sanding block. About 1" inner diameter works well, because you can stick your finger in it. Be very careful... I have taken some nasty cuts sanding razors. Even the "dull" ones will do some damage. Best way to sand right at the edge is to fold a piece of sandpaper grit side inward, and pinch the edge between it with your thumb and forefinger. Proceed carefully or you will get cut. You can work with the spine of the razor turned toward the web of your hand, instead of the edge, for added safety.

The razor looks worth polishing and honing. The scales look okay. Make sure that the razor closes up properly, with the razor firmly centered between the scales. Trying to close the razor and letting it bite into the scale will dull it immediately.

Have you honed razors before? If not, de-rust the blade completely, post a pic of what you got left, and we can walk you through the process, or you can send it out for honing.

 

[drathgeb]

Have not honed any razors before but am interested in trying. Was on the hunt for some lapping films but would also like to find a coticule as some on the forum feel they have more "mojo". I am beginning to feel like I am in this for the long haul.
What grit sand paper should I be using?

 

[paco664]

hand sand until all the rust is gone, all the pitting from the edge area. Then it is ready for the bevel to be set. If you have some rubber hose laying around, you can use that as a sanding block. About 1" inner diameter works well, because you can stick your finger in it. Be very careful... I have taken some nasty cuts sanding razors. Even the "dull" ones will do some damage. Best way to sand right at the edge is to fold a piece of sandpaper grit side inward, and pinch the edge between it with your thumb and forefinger. Proceed carefully or you will get cut. You can work with the spine of the razor turned toward the web of your hand, instead of the edge, for added safety.

The razor looks worth polishing and honing. The scales look okay. Make sure that the razor closes up properly, with the razor firmly centered between the scales. Trying to close the razor and letting it bite into the scale will dull it immediately.

Have you honed razors before? If not, de-rust the blade completely, post a pic of what you got left, and we can walk you through the process, or you can send it out for honing.

nice tip on using the hose...

 

[Krodor]

my guess: sand/polish it per the above, and under a microscope that will have a cheesed/pitted/microchipped edge. Some time on a bevel setter to get to "good steel" then move to the rest of the honing and you'll end up with a sweet shave. Good razor, just needs a little work. DON'T toss it...have you seen this thread?

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/263998-A-new-competition-OK

always review those before thinking you have a blade that is too far gone!

 

[Slash McCoy]

Have not honed any razors before but am interested in trying. Was on the hunt for some lapping films but would also like to find a coticule as some on the forum feel they have more "mojo". I am beginning to feel like I am in this for the long haul.
What grit sand paper should I be using?

For that razor, because even though the pitting is significant, much of it is at the edge, I would start with about 200 grit. But that's me. You can start with coarser stuff but that would increase the odds that you will end up removing more steel than necessary. At any rate, the real work is done by your first grit. You must continue until all pitting is gone, not a trace remaining. The next finer grit in your progression should not have to do any work except smoothing out the scratches left by the coarser grit, replacing them with its own, finer scratches. Let's say you start with 200 grit. The 200 takes out all pitting, all rust, all blemishes, and leaves 200 grit level scratches. The 300 or 320 whatever, must not see any of those blemishes, but instead only see a consistent surface covered in the 200 level scratches, and its job is to completely remove those scratches and leave its own finer ones. The 400 grit must not see any 200 grit level scratches. It must see only the 300 grit scratches, and must completely remove them, leaving nothing behind except its own 400 grit scratches. If the 400 grit paper has to do any grunt work, it will take forever. Then the 600 grit paper must see only the 400 grit finish, and nothing else, and must completely smooth that out and leave behind only its own scratches. And so on up to at least 1000 grit and I would take it through 1500 and 2000 grit. Then you can finish with 3u and 1u diamond paste on a rag or on a felt or cloth wheel if you are careful. You could even go to .25u or .1u if you want that perfect mirror finish. Do all your polishing before touching a hone. If a simple 1k finish is adequate for you, then stop there.

I often begin with paper as coarse as 80 grit. Depends on the razor and the magnitude of the damage. If you don't need the big guns, don't use them. If you do, then do.

Mojo doesn't shave. Sharp shaves.

A coti is a lot of fun but a nice wide one will cost you some serious bucks. Of course you can partially justify the cost with the versatility of the coti, since it replaces several stones in the normal progression.

Coti fans like to point out that a 1-1/2" wide coti bout will do a perfectly adequate job of honing a razor. I will add to that: a 1-1/2" coti bout will do a perfectly adequate job of honing a razor, in skilled hands. It is easier to get a good edge the first time out with a honing surface as wide as the edge of the razor is long. A big hone drastically shortens the time between never done it, to that first scary sharp, sweet shaving edge. And the cheapest way to get an overkill big honing surface is with film. Plus it never needs lapping. The plate gets zero wear. The film is easily replaced, and is a consumable item. A stone must generally be lapped before first use, with some exceptions, and it must be relapped periodically. Drop your stone, and you might break it. Drop your film, well, pick it up. Your plate might break. Boo hoo. Go to Home Depot and spend $5 on yet another polished marble floor tile. As for finishing, a coticule is only as good as the person using it, and is generally a compromise until you develop honing patience and an easy touch. With film, there is no compromise unless you simply don't want to buy that 1u for a finisher. Results with film are consistent and excellent, and even your first attempt will probably give you a good shaving edge, with better edges to come in the next few sessions.

If you are truly in it for the long haul like you say, and you feel the call of the coti, definitely you should get one, eventually. Treat yourself to a nice 70mm or 75mm wide monster, as well as a large-ish bout and a small bout for use as a slurry stone. It is easy to become addicted to the coti, especially with a big luxurious rock, of any vein. But for your first foray into honing, I suggest films. The instant gratification is sure to hold your interest and delight you with the results. Which is more important... the challenge, or the results vs cost and ease?

As with any fine object, pride of ownership comes into play. A big rectangular natural combo coticule is a posession to be prized. Even a smaller one will give you satisfaction in having it as well as using it. Yes, it has mojo. Just remember, mojo isn't what shaves you.

 

[Pkrankow]

The skill needed to use a 40x125 or 40x150 hone is not very much more compared to using a 75x300 expanse of lapping film. They are merely different. I think people get intimidated and choke for no good reason.

I like films because they are cheap and fast, however I struggle to get a shaving edge off them. I get a shaving edge easily from coticule.

Nice blade there. I would start with greaseless compound on denim by hand and see if that staining/rust gets removed easily before going to papers. The greaseless can preserve the polish while removing staining. Of course if the damage is much more than staining the above advice with papers is where you are going.

Phil

 

[drathgeb]

Thanks for the info. Ill head to the hardware store this weekend and get started. I'll post pics as things progress.

 

[Slash McCoy]

The skill needed to use a 40x125 or 40x150 hone is not very much more compared to using a 75x300 expanse of lapping film. They are merely different. I think people get intimidated and choke for no good reason.

I like films because they are cheap and fast, however I struggle to get a shaving edge off them. I get a shaving edge easily from coticule.

Nice blade there. I would start with greaseless compound on denim by hand and see if that staining/rust gets removed easily before going to papers. The greaseless can preserve the polish while removing staining. Of course if the damage is much more than staining the above advice with papers is where you are going.

Phil

Have you figured out just why you are having difficulties with the film? Most people find it astonishingly easy to get good results. What are you using for your lapping plate?

I can get a good edge from coti, but it took a while to get good at it. I had a 50mm wide rectangular glued combo, so wider than some, but not as wide as my nortons or my C12k or my 1k/6k King, and I had usually 3/4" of blade overhang so a full x-stroke was absolutely necessary. The tricky part for me was judging when and how much to dilute. Once I got that down I could shave off it just fine without an additional finisher, but my best coti edge couldn't compare with my average film edge, and I got an average film edge the first time I used film. I think I got lucky by picking the marble tile as my plate. It is quite good.

Tips:

make sure your plate is flat. Don't just assume it is because it looks flat. As an experiment I used the 3 stone method for checking the flatness of Home Depot marble tiles, and they were very good. I would estimate that they are flat within .001 and obviously very smooth. Heavy plate glass, if made in a modern factory within the last 20 years, should be similarly flat. A glass coffee table top comes to mind. Lee Valley Tools has a fairly inexpensive granite lapping plate that is certified flat within .0001" and no that is not a typo. That is flat within 2.54u. Sweet. I will be getting one.

You may find that chamfering the edge of your plate will help you. And now the dreaded disclaimer: YMMV

Make sure your plate, as well as the back of your film, is very clean. Even particles from the previous grade of film will mess you up. Running water is your friend. Hair? That will totally wreck your results. Glue residue from PSA film or glued sandpaper? Clean it off, completely. Acetone or nail polish remover will do the trick. Then rinse well in water and check your work.

Be sure you don't have any bubbles under your film. Start in the middle and smooth it out toward the edges.

Light pressure. The glide on the film is deceptive and can lure you into pressing too hard. But it is cutting. When a piece of film has done its work, it will stick or grab slightly, due to the vacuum between bevel surface and film. When you feel that, go another dozen laps and move along to the next stage. The stickiness is very subtle and you may need to be really watching for it.

After your final stage, which should be 1u film, remove the film. Apply a piece of damp paper, very slightly smaller than your film. Apply your film right over it and hit it again, with maybe 20 or 30 light laps, for a very smooth and friendly but still very very sharp edge.

.3u film is not really needed. In fact, it often gives a decidedly harsh edge. The 1u is fine enough. If you want a still finer edge, I suggest adding lather in your finishing stage of 1u over damp paper, and increasing your laps to 100 very light laps.

Even though your honing surface is supposedly flat, and even if your edge is faultlessly straight (a straight edge works better than a smiley on a wide honing surface IMHO) it is still a good idea especially with the 1u film stages to continuously and randomly vary your heel leading angle, and maybe use a slight x-stroke motion, to cancel out any irregularities in the surface. Film is very consistent, and you should have established that your plate is flat by one method or another, or bought from a source of known quality like the Home Depot marble tiles. Still, stuff happens. You could have a bubble, or some microscopic debris or something. Anyway randomly varying the stroke angle seems to help, especially in the finishing stages.

For added zip, strop on a hard leather bench strop pasted with .5u or .25u diamond. For a softer edge, strop on a CrOx pasted hanging strop of good quality. A quick stropping and test shave will tell you which way to go with the paste, or indeed whether you want to bother with it or not.

Finally, a tip that will help you no matter what you hone on. I always hold the hone loosely in the left hand, instead of resting it on a flat surface. This allows the honing surface and the bevel surface to sort of find each other and find their own alignment. I hope that doesn't sound too zen, but it really works. Neither the left hand, nor the hone should touch your body or any object. It should be sort of floating, waiting for the razor to alight upon it. Obviously this won't work well with a heavy hone or plate when you have 20 razors to hone, due to the weight, but it works great for one or two razors.

I can't think of anything else that would give an accomplished coticulist problems on film. Don't give up on it. It isn't just fast... it is effective, too. I think it is similar to the problem of military instructors trying to teach a dead-on one shot squirrel hunter how to shoot. When you are too good already, it is hard to unlearn all that valuable knowledge and relearn a different way. I don't know. Maybe I am overanalyzing here. Anyhow time for another think, I drink. Something like that.

 

[drathgeb]

I have seen some lapping films on line. What are the best brands, where can I get them and what sizes (grit) should I get?

 

[Slash McCoy]

3M is good. ThorLabs is good... I don't know who makes their films. www.thorlabs.com but they only sell a minimum of 10 sheets per grade. ThorLabs is who I use. Their sheets are 9" x 13". Most other sheets are 8-1/2" x 11". Do not get smaller sheets or discs, and don't get PSA films. That is the peel n stick kind. You want the plain back film.

1u is your finisher. .3u is not needed, and in fact often gives a very harsh edge. 1u can also be used for maintenance honing. It is roughly equivelant to a 12k Naniwa, or 14k ANSI grit. It will leave you with a very very good edge, as long as it was already reasonably sharp before using the 1u. This film cuts slowly and finely, so don't expect it to do major steel removal. It is only for finishing.

3u is roughly equivelant to an 8k Norton stone. You can shave off it but it will not impress. If you only get 3u and do not get 1u, you will probably want to strop on a pasted bench strop loaded with 1u diamond paste after the 3u film, and maybe follow that with CrOx or .25u diamond. Again, don't expect it to do the grunt work on an old beater. If you wouldn't be able to do the job with the 8k Norton, don't expect the 3u film to be able to do it.

5u is near enough to a Norton 4k stone. It is good for the first stage after bevel setting. Could you set a bevel with it? Only if you were willing to go LOTS of laps. Better to use this film for what it is best at... refining a bevel set with a coarser film or stone or paper.

12u is a bit finer than a 1k Norton or other 1k ANSI grit stone. You can set a bevel with this, but a well lapped 1k Norton might suit you better. Or you might want to set your bevel on a 600 grit diamond plate, and follow it with the 12u film. If you can find 15u film, it will maybe make a better bevel setter. You can also set your bevel on 1k wet/dry sandpaper on the same plate that you use for film. Stick the sandpaper on with LocTite spray adhesive. Most brands of sandpaper will not lay flat on the plate, and if it won't lay flat, then having a nice flat plate is all for nothing and your results will probably suck. After using sandpaper glued to your plate, you need to thoroughly clean off the glue residue with acetone and a clean rag, then rinse in running water, or better yet, wash in soapy water. But you CAN set a bevel on a blade without any serious damage using the 12u film.

30u is the next coarser grade commonly found. I think it is roughly equivelant to 400 or 500 grit stone. This would be okay for light edge repair, such as getting rid of small chips or minor pitting at the edge. For bigger chips or dings, or a frown, or an unwanted smile, you will want a coarse stone or two. Film won't work so well for this.

In addition to your film you will need a lapping plate. A polished marble tile from Home Depot works good and is cheap.

So what films you need depends on what kind of honing you anticipate doing. If your razors are already in good shape and you just want to refresh them when they go a little dull, all you need is 1u, and maybe 3u film. For honing a razor from the wild or a new razor from the factory, you will want all the above mentioned grades. You can get 3 pieces from a sheet of film and each piece is good for about a dozen razors, as a general rule. So a 10 sheet order of a grade will do you for about 500 razors. Very likely a lifetime supply.

 

[drathgeb]

I just ordered some off of Amazon. Will I use this edge first like honing or will it be spine first like stropping? Worried that I will cut the paper.

 

[Slash McCoy]

edge first. You are honing. If you cut the film, you are doing something wrong wrong wrong. Oh I see you said "paper". You want lapping FILM, not lapping or polishing paper. Lapping film is a plastic sheet substrate coated on one side with an abrasive matrix. Paper is probably just that, and probably won't do what you want it to do.

Before you start, do a search for all threads with "lapping film" in the title, and read them from beginning to end. All your questions are answered there, even the ones you don't know to ask yet. This is especially important since this is your first venture into honing. Take your time and do your research and you will get good results your first time out. Rush headlong and headstrong into it without reading the threads, and no telling what you gonna get but it probably won't be anything good. The methods that work have been found. All you got to do is follow them. "Feel" or judgement or experience is not needed... all you got to do is follow the method. It is science, not art.

 

[Pkrankow]

Maybe the 0.3 micron was my problem (I haven't tried in a while). My plate (a tile from Lowes) also has a raw edge from cutting, and I probably will chamfer that.

I am going to be into a round of much honing soon, several of my razors are decidedly no longer shave ready. I can go months without honing with the number of "shave ready" razors I have!

Phil

 

[drathgeb]

Rubbed it down with 220 grit sandpaper.


I didn't get all of the rust off but feel confident the edge is now clean

 

[Slash McCoy]

Do all your sanding and polishing before you start the honing process. Maybe take a bit more time with the 220 and go for a totally clean blade, then have a go on 400, 600, 1000, and 2000 grit. Then 3u and 1u diamond paste on a piece of old tshirt or if you are good with a Dremel and like to live dangerously, a felt wheel. You might also try a cloth wheel on a bench grinder. Be sure you are satisfied with the finish before you start honing.

 

[drathgeb]

What danger could I expect from the Dremel with the felt wheel? Looks like another trip to the hardware store.

 

[paco664]

What danger could I expect from the Dremel with the felt wheel? Looks like another trip to the hardware store.

if you aren't careful the felt wheel can grab the blade and chunk it across the room.... or bust it into pieces....

google dremel straight razor.....