Hard water perhaps? I have issues with some brands but find Proraso and Williams work well. Try Proraso in a tube. That stuff works in all waters hard or soft and makes a good lather for me. I'm sure with the wealth of knowledge guys have on here a remedy will be forthcoming for you. I lather up on my face with tube creams and lather up my brush with little water on puck soaps.
Another horrid shave tonight, think I have lather issues
- Thread starter cugamer
- Start date
sounds like way too much water. Get the top of the soap wet, the brush wet but NOT drippy, basically, push (gently) the brush in the soap, making 3-4 solid turns each direction.
Then, with a DAMP face, work the soap and brush through the whiskers on your face, letting the brush and the whiskers create the lather. Should take about 3 minutes on your face. The soap will work on the whiskers and it should be painless.
What razor and blade are you using, and, are YOU putting pressure on the razor? If so, don’t; just let it glide through the lather!
sounds dumb, but face lathering is great!
Then, with a DAMP face, work the soap and brush through the whiskers on your face, letting the brush and the whiskers create the lather. Should take about 3 minutes on your face. The soap will work on the whiskers and it should be painless.
What razor and blade are you using, and, are YOU putting pressure on the razor? If so, don’t; just let it glide through the lather!
sounds dumb, but face lathering is great!
AimlessWanderer
Remember to forget me!
Notice the variations in feedback here? It's par for the course I'm afraid, as there is no single solution, and much will depend on your soap, your water, your brush, and your face.
I'm going to confuse things even further. Sorry. That really runny lather that you describe, is what I start with. I don't bowl lather, but go straight to the face with it and start "working" the lather there. I then keep working it until the lather is how I want it. So for my method, the only thing that's missing is for you to keep going with the brush. Just because the bristles are covered, doesn't mean it's time to reach for the razor.
Apologies for adding yet another solution to the list.
I'm going to confuse things even further. Sorry. That really runny lather that you describe, is what I start with. I don't bowl lather, but go straight to the face with it and start "working" the lather there. I then keep working it until the lather is how I want it. So for my method, the only thing that's missing is for you to keep going with the brush. Just because the bristles are covered, doesn't mean it's time to reach for the razor.
Apologies for adding yet another solution to the list.
- Thread starter
- #24
Thanks for the replies all. In answer to some of your queries the brush I'm using is a basic Razorock synthetic which was recommended to me here a few months ago. I have tried a cream, it's a Taylor of Old Bond Street cream and have had no better results with it. I've tried face lathering a few times but end up giving up after a few seconds because the water and soap are running down my hand and don't last long enough to actually get anywhere. As far as pressure and angle, I've tried every angle from 5 degrees to 90 (currently very shallow angle, about 10 degrees,) and I use so little pressure that I sometimes drop the razor. The razor itself is undamaged, in good shape and is very light.
Tonight I had about two days growth so I took a quick shower and followed the tutorial MVD1 linked to. I did end up with a more substantial product, no dripping or anything like that, so I was hopeful that I'd have a better shave. I was quickly reminded that hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. I'm looking at about 16 open wounds on my neck and it's as red as if I'd tried scraping off the hair with sandpaper. It's marginally better than my last shave but that's not saying much. Since switching to the double edge my shaves have been so traumatic that I now only shave at night, as it is usually an hour or two before I've healed up enough to go anywhere.
So yeah, I got what I'm pretty sure is a good lather, and the shave was just as awful. Guess it's not the lather. Everybody says that anyone can get this eventually, but I'm really starting to think that there is just something wrong with my skin that is going to make getting a quality shave like this impossible.
Tonight I had about two days growth so I took a quick shower and followed the tutorial MVD1 linked to. I did end up with a more substantial product, no dripping or anything like that, so I was hopeful that I'd have a better shave. I was quickly reminded that hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. I'm looking at about 16 open wounds on my neck and it's as red as if I'd tried scraping off the hair with sandpaper. It's marginally better than my last shave but that's not saying much. Since switching to the double edge my shaves have been so traumatic that I now only shave at night, as it is usually an hour or two before I've healed up enough to go anywhere.
So yeah, I got what I'm pretty sure is a good lather, and the shave was just as awful. Guess it's not the lather. Everybody says that anyone can get this eventually, but I'm really starting to think that there is just something wrong with my skin that is going to make getting a quality shave like this impossible.
Last edited:
AimlessWanderer
Remember to forget me!
It sounds to me like there's more problems than just lather. Here, have a read through of this guide that I put together for newcomers to DE shaving. There might be a few things in there to help you get nearer the shave quality that you're looking for, including shaving angle.
The Wanderers Guide To DE Shaving
You shouldn't be gripping the razor with no pressure, just applying minimal pressure on the face. You need to be holding the razor securely to maintain control of it. One good tip that gets mentioned here, is to do the stroke with your elbow, not your wrist. The wrist just alters the angle when you go round a curve. On a flattish section like your cheeks, you almost need to lock your wrist and move your whole forearm.
To practice this (and lather), it might even be worth taking your blade out of your razor, and just practice taking the foam off your face with an unloaded razor to try and maintain the angle around your face with no risk of a nick if you get it wrong.
Have a read of the guide, and practice the action, control, and pressure with no blade before your next shave. Once you get the hang of the basics, you'll feel a lot more comfortable and confident.
The Wanderers Guide To DE Shaving
You shouldn't be gripping the razor with no pressure, just applying minimal pressure on the face. You need to be holding the razor securely to maintain control of it. One good tip that gets mentioned here, is to do the stroke with your elbow, not your wrist. The wrist just alters the angle when you go round a curve. On a flattish section like your cheeks, you almost need to lock your wrist and move your whole forearm.
To practice this (and lather), it might even be worth taking your blade out of your razor, and just practice taking the foam off your face with an unloaded razor to try and maintain the angle around your face with no risk of a nick if you get it wrong.
Have a read of the guide, and practice the action, control, and pressure with no blade before your next shave. Once you get the hang of the basics, you'll feel a lot more comfortable and confident.
I guess we need more info.
Razor and blades used, direction of shaving, facemapping, etc.
Razor and blades used, direction of shaving, facemapping, etc.
You sound like a guy taking a normal hike up the learning curve, and unfortunately the hike is at times difficult and frustrating. One thing that makes the journey difficult is that so many aspects of technique need to be learned that it can be hard to know on any given day where we went wrong. Here are a few suggestions that have helped me. There is nothing new here BTW, just stuff I learned mostly in this forum:
- If you have not yet mapped your beard, do so now.
- Take it easy on your neck - for the next few months even. Do one WTG pass only on your neck. Learn to shave the easy parts of your beard first, and then move on.
- Don't shoot for BBS shaves yet. Maybe your next goal should be comfortable SAS shaves, then DFS.
- If your razor is a DE, then your 10 degree blade angle sounds wrong. Blade angle is important and as @BigJ pointed out, there are threads that discuss it. I don't have them in front of me now, but you can google blade angle site:badgerandblade.com. Look through them.
- If fixing the blade angle doesn't bring relief, then consider using a mild razor for now. Unless you have a very challenging beard, a mild razor may bring you some relief. See if your razor is on this list, and shoot for something rated 3.0 or less. My own journey got much more pleasant when I switched to a Feather AS-D2 and stayed there patiently for a while. BTW, on my face, the AS-D2 was not a good tool for a BBS shave. I eventually moved on, with some bloody difficulty, until I found a razor that seemed especially right for me. After three or four weeks of figuring out how to use the new razor, I started to see glimpses of BBS heaven. That was months ago, and I still have a long way to go. On a bad day (which is rare) I get a six weeper DFS. On a good day, I get a blood free DFS or (rarely) a BBS shave with two weepers or less.
- Read a few threads about lathering synthetic brushes. They are fundamentally different from badger and boar.
- Make changes gradually. Try hard to change only one thing at a time and to stick with your rig for several shaves. Unless you have hard water and the wrong soap for it, or perhaps an old dilapidated razor, your technique is likely to be your problem, not your gear. When you do change things up, change only one thing at a time. In my case for example, I have used the same brand blade and razor for about two and a half months. I've been using the same soap base for about 10 days now (10 days with B&M Reserve Spice and Cool). I recently decided to focus on synthetic brushes only, and I have been using the same brush for about a week now. It's easier to learn when you keep your kit unchanged for five or ten days at a time, and it is easier to see the effect of each piece of kit when you change only one piece at a time.
Good luck. I imagine the first 1,000 shaves must be the hardest, and after that it is all downhill. Enjoy the trip.
PS: Please don't run out and buy an AS-D2 because it worked for me. There are other mild razors out there that may serve you as well or better. Likewise with the B&M soaps.
Sure sounds frustrating. Help is here so don’t give up. More info please as well as a picture or two would help.
Razor, blades used, and a picture of your lather maybe?
Razor, blades used, and a picture of your lather maybe?
Lots of good advice here.
For the watery lather - definitely too much water.
Perhaps your trying to make lather too quickly? I'm on hard water so I had to learn the hard way to make good lather (perhaps you are too). Prior to showering, I put a thin layer of hot water on my soap. I shower, once done do not dry face and immediately shave. I then let my brush soak for a couple minutes (Badger brush) only. Basically squeeze the water out with my hand, take the thin layer out of my soap bucket (usually splash it on my face since its soapy water - may or may not help). Notice how there is not much water? I then start loading the brush for a LONG time, till my brush seems full. I then face lather and add water on my brush as necessary.
Off note - I found Arko to be the best on hard water - but I've learn't to use others such as stirling soap as well over time.
My issue beginning was that I was trying to be too cheap with soap. I got over that once I had my first good shave.
Regarding shaving angle - take a physical look at the blade and how it sits in the razor. Also look at how the blade in cartridges sit - you have to mimic how they sit inside the cartridge when its against your face (remember you dont have the pivot point either). Hold the razor so that you can achieve approx that angle.
I'm no expert - maybe other will prove me wrong, but don't believe that your gear is the problem. Learn technique first, no razor is so horrible that you can't shave with. I bought a dorco razor (Dorco Prime Starter Set: Butterfly Shaver, 30 Double Edge Blades and Travel Case (ST3000)) and people on Reddit convinced me it was a garbage razor and that was my issue. Not knowing what I was doing, I bought a Slim (which I don't regret) but had the same issues in the end until I learn't to use it properly. Other than the plastic parts in the Dorco razor and more expensive than other options I could of got, the razor works perfectly fine.
For the watery lather - definitely too much water.
Perhaps your trying to make lather too quickly? I'm on hard water so I had to learn the hard way to make good lather (perhaps you are too). Prior to showering, I put a thin layer of hot water on my soap. I shower, once done do not dry face and immediately shave. I then let my brush soak for a couple minutes (Badger brush) only. Basically squeeze the water out with my hand, take the thin layer out of my soap bucket (usually splash it on my face since its soapy water - may or may not help). Notice how there is not much water? I then start loading the brush for a LONG time, till my brush seems full. I then face lather and add water on my brush as necessary.
Off note - I found Arko to be the best on hard water - but I've learn't to use others such as stirling soap as well over time.
My issue beginning was that I was trying to be too cheap with soap. I got over that once I had my first good shave.
Regarding shaving angle - take a physical look at the blade and how it sits in the razor. Also look at how the blade in cartridges sit - you have to mimic how they sit inside the cartridge when its against your face (remember you dont have the pivot point either). Hold the razor so that you can achieve approx that angle.
I'm no expert - maybe other will prove me wrong, but don't believe that your gear is the problem. Learn technique first, no razor is so horrible that you can't shave with. I bought a dorco razor (Dorco Prime Starter Set: Butterfly Shaver, 30 Double Edge Blades and Travel Case (ST3000)) and people on Reddit convinced me it was a garbage razor and that was my issue. Not knowing what I was doing, I bought a Slim (which I don't regret) but had the same issues in the end until I learn't to use it properly. Other than the plastic parts in the Dorco razor and more expensive than other options I could of got, the razor works perfectly fine.
I find this 10 degree angle difficult to picture if we are talking blade angle. Here is the link on that, it is around 30 degree blade angle that you would normally use; Blade Angle
Have a secure hold on the razor but apply it lightly so the blade glides over the skin.
It is a combination of good lather and razor technique that will get you there. Keep persevering and you will get there.
I'm sure you have plenty of advice at this point but I'll give what I think is more simplified advice. If you are cutting yourself then stop doing that! Use less pressure, pull your skin tighter if necessary.
The problem isn't with your lather, creme, or choice of razor or blades. You don't need to face map or anything else to avoid cutting your face up.
Just concentrate on getting more experience and do so with less pressure and do it more slowly. Just concentrate on not cutting yourself. The rest will come with experience.
You probably have some bad habits that are common when coming from cartridge shaving. With a cartridge you almost can't cut yourself. You can't even cut hair in many cases (due to all the protective plastic) without pressure and pushing the razor into your skin.
When you do that with a DE, you cut yourself. Just let gravity and the weight of the razor do the work and for the moment just shave with the grain of your beard.
Use less pressure, pull your skin tighter if necessary.The problem isn't with your lather, creme, or choice of razor or blades. You don't need to face map or anything else to avoid cutting your face up.
Just concentrate on getting more experience and do so with less pressure and do it more slowly. Just concentrate on not cutting yourself. The rest will come with experience.
You probably have some bad habits that are common when coming from cartridge shaving. With a cartridge you almost can't cut yourself. You can't even cut hair in many cases (due to all the protective plastic) without pressure and pushing the razor into your skin.
When you do that with a DE, you cut yourself. Just let gravity and the weight of the razor do the work and for the moment just shave with the grain of your beard.
Something is seriously wrong here and it’s not lather. This doesn’t sound like a normal learning curve to me. Razor burn, less than close shaves, a nick here and there are all normal. 16 cuts is not. Pls give us more information and consider posting a video of yourself shaving so we can help you.
If you're getting that many cuts and nicks you have a technique issue, not a lather issue. I would investigate from that perspective and work with suggestions to improve how you're managing your pressure and angle. There are some razor/blade combos that are more forgiving, while others will punish the slightest technique error and provide the best results only after you have perfected the proper technique across all areas of the shaving surface.
Sorry for your troubles.
Lather is way less complicated than you're making it. Runny is always too much water for the amount of product you loaded. Loading more product is always a good idea in the beginning. It's easy to add more water if you need it.
Lots of blood, on the other hand, is a different issue. You insist your pressure is light - which is wonderful (most of us use way too much at the start -even when we're trying to go light).
It sounds like your angle is all over the place, which will not produce consistent results - ever. Some people find a reasonable angle by placing the cap on their face and lowering the blade until it cuts. However you find it, it won't be 10 or 90 degrees.
Which razor? Which blade?
Lather is way less complicated than you're making it. Runny is always too much water for the amount of product you loaded. Loading more product is always a good idea in the beginning. It's easy to add more water if you need it.
Lots of blood, on the other hand, is a different issue. You insist your pressure is light - which is wonderful (most of us use way too much at the start -even when we're trying to go light).
It sounds like your angle is all over the place, which will not produce consistent results - ever. Some people find a reasonable angle by placing the cap on their face and lowering the blade until it cuts. However you find it, it won't be 10 or 90 degrees.
Which razor? Which blade?
Like others commented above, your issue may be two much water on the soap and / or in your brush.
I am obtaining great results using a glycerin soap prep--I apply it using the brush of the day. I let it sit on my face for 3 to 4 minutes. Then, I lather up using Old Spice Original cream and my brush of the day. When my beard is long, I apply a film of glycerin to the blade edge.
Also, check to see if your razor is holding the blade tightly. One of my Gillette Super Speed recently stopped gripping tightly resulting in nicks.
I am obtaining great results using a glycerin soap prep--I apply it using the brush of the day. I let it sit on my face for 3 to 4 minutes. Then, I lather up using Old Spice Original cream and my brush of the day. When my beard is long, I apply a film of glycerin to the blade edge.
Also, check to see if your razor is holding the blade tightly. One of my Gillette Super Speed recently stopped gripping tightly resulting in nicks.
How long are you working your lather? It may not be a water issue at all, but simply an issue of not working it enough. Don't stop just when it turns into something foamy, you've got to keep going until it turns into the consistency of something like whipped cream.
You could also just be using some bad blades, or a razor that's simply too aggressive for your face.
You could also just be using some bad blades, or a razor that's simply too aggressive for your face.
Great advice on this post! I face lather everyday. May I suggest trying something like Proraso in a tube. It might work better for you and avoid some morning frustration. Or you might want to try a soap stick like Erasmic or Palmolive. You wet your facha, rub it all over, then take your brush and whip up a soap beard and go at it.
Lots of good ideas and tips so far! I think technique is the main problem here. My suggestion would to find a mentor who can see what is possibly going on here. If you keep this up you may require a blood tranfusion! Don't give up yet!
Mike
Mike
Something else that might help: shave every day so you're not trying to cut so much whisker.
I've also found that with a double edge razor I always make my first pass with the grain (down, in my case) and if I need a second pass it's across, not against. With cartridges I went against the grain for my second pass. Sometimes I need to relather for that second pass, but not always.
I also look way up when shaving my neck to be sure my skin is taught and not being drug by my razor.
I've also found that with a double edge razor I always make my first pass with the grain (down, in my case) and if I need a second pass it's across, not against. With cartridges I went against the grain for my second pass. Sometimes I need to relather for that second pass, but not always.
I also look way up when shaving my neck to be sure my skin is taught and not being drug by my razor.
I would suggest you check out Michael Freedberg and Geofatboys tutorials on YouTube, they hold a wealth of valuable experience. Perhaps try smoother less sharp blade like a Voskhod while you are learning, and consider a soap from Barrister and Mann or Haslinger they are very good soaps which are water hungray and easy to lather. Also, perhaps try cold water shaving and maybe preshave cream like Proraso. I would also suggest you pick up a setup and stick with it for 30 days, this eliminates all variables except technique. Just stick with it, it took me three months to figure out my technique.
Similar threads
