The Great Rigid Blade Experiment

[Dovo1695]

According to my experience these little 'burs' of skin (I say burs because they remind me of the little burs of timber fibres that stand up when applying shellac finish) are a result of a high shave angle. They definitely occur during the ATG pass and I believe it's because the razor is catching the hair and dragging it through the skin before cutting it due to the higher angle. Applying a little pressure may result in the blade also catching the skin and allowing the hair to tear some of it out and create a little bur.

I like the term. Although I've never seen them shaving, I have seen them in woodworking when using shellac like you mentioned. I've always called them "nibs". When I'm finishing a piece of furniture with shellac, my first step is go over the whole piece with just denatured alcohol to raise the grain. Then I quickly sand all the raised "burrs" back down to 220, and then I apply the shellac. In my mind it creates a smoother finish and better shellac penetration, but it's probably just my imagination. Maybe I'll use some alcohol based aftershave as a pre-shave to see just how far the analogy can be extended to shaving...

I agree with your explanation of what's happening, and where the shaving nib's come from. I don't remember ever seeing them before though. I'm not sure if that's because I was at a higher angle than usual, or if my other razors simply aren't aggressive enough to produce them. It was surprising to see, I can tell you that!

 

[Shavemd]

Is this razor a RAD Killer for you?

Happy shaves,
QUOTE="Shavemd, post: 9336370, member: 113955"]

I was taught the angle is defined as the head of the razor to your skin, so riding the head is shallow to me and riding the guard is steep. Is there such a thing as RAD killer? My wall display holds 30 razors and is full and it can’t hold my Asylum,King Cobra or Cobra classic and to my wife’s dismay I have a titanium Wolfman on the way

 

[Dovo1695]

I barely understand Grant's work in the illustration above, but at least it gives me a reference point to look back to when I forget what shallow-angle shaving and steep-angle shaving mean.

I had been consciously riding the cap in my previous shaves with the razor, but for this shave, I just didn't think it about it all, I just shaved quickly and let my hands do as they pleased. I was using a lot of high angles for this shave.

How often can your skin take that? Mine suffers unless I stay above the skin.

Is this razor a RAD Killer for you?

Well I wouldn't characterize this as a particularly comfortable shave, but it sure was a close one. The alum expressed it's displeasure earnestly, as did my aftershave. None of the shaves that I've had with the Grande have been as comfortable as I'm used to; I'd put this one somewhere in the middle of my Grande shaves irritation-wise . Bear in mind I've been shaving with a super mild tech clone for the past year though. It's a pretty big change. One thing that this razor does have in common with my Teck II is that provides a tug free shave. That's one element of comfort I'm not willing to compromise on, and the performance characteristic where the Teck II is a superstar. The Grande causes a fair bit of skin irritation, but it never seems to tug. I think this is due to the rigidity of the design.

It's not a RAD killer yet, but it sure is an interesting razor. I'm still damn near BBS 8 hrs after my shave, and that's impressive in it's own right. My hope is that my face will adjust to the razor, and my technique will improve to the point where there is dramatically irritation. Time will tell!

 

[TheKman]

I like the term. Although I've never seen them shaving, I have seen them in woodworking when using shellac like you mentioned. I've always called them "nibs". When I'm finishing a piece of furniture with shellac, my first step is go over the whole piece with just denatured alcohol to raise the grain. Then I quickly sand all the raised "burrs" back down to 220, and then I apply the shellac. In my mind it creates a smoother finish and better shellac penetration, but it's probably just my imagination. Maybe I'll use some alcohol based aftershave as a pre-shave to see just how far the analogy can be extended to shaving...

I agree with your explanation of what's happening, and where the shaving nib's come from. I don't remember ever seeing them before though. I'm not sure if that's because I was at a higher angle than usual, or if my other razors simply aren't aggressive enough to produce them. It was surprising to see, I can tell you that!

I was taught to use one part ready shellac and four parts spirit for the first finish before sanding. Makes the burs rigid so they sand down smoother? Never tried it your way.

As for why you've never seen them before, you may just have much hardier skin than me. My skin is quite fragile, I see them all the time.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I had been consciously riding the cap in my previous shaves with the razor, but for this shave, I just didn't think it about it all, I just shaved quickly and let my hands do as they pleased. I was using a lot of high angles for this shave.

Shallow-angle for this shave or Steep-angle for this shave? Sorry for being so dense.

I am hopeful your skin doesn't have to adjust to your razor or your shaves. I'm not so sure skin adjusts so very well.

I'm shaving with the Fatip Piccolo and using a Shallow-angle shaving technique. I'm thus riding the cap a little bit. My shaves with the Piccolo and with the Gentile, its brother, and with its cousin, the Schöne have been very smooth shaves, and also very comfortable.

Remarkably smooth.

Close is great, and I like it very much, but, for me, comfort is always #1.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Cal]

I was using a lot of high angles for this shave.

Shallow-angle for this shave or Steep-angle for this shave?

Yes! That would be good. If it's any consolation it's driving me mad(der) too Jim.

 

[Esox]

There is a lot to be said about the concept of "just shave"!

Thats what you told me...

Enjoy and remember a light touch and just shave.

It is just a razor after all. They are not the aggressive scary skin peelers many think they are. Used properly I can see them being completely mindless. I didnt think my NEW SC would be a mindless shaver, but after using my Grande for about 15 shaves and going back to my NEW SC for a single shave, it showed me it is a mindless shaver and I would think nothing of shaving blind in the shower with it. I'm not sure I'm there with the Grande, but I'm sure I could if I needed too. That may take more than my usual 5-7 minutes though.

In regards to angle used. I do steepen the angle on my jawline and my chin. My stubble is coarser and more dense there and a slightly steeper angle makes the shave easier and shaves me closer. My jawline is much more a chore than I knew. My swirls on my neck are much easier to shave by comparison, they just need direction changes.

 

[Dovo1695]

Shallow-angle for this shave or Steep-angle for this shave? Sorry for being so dense.

I am hopeful your skin doesn't have to adjust to your razor or your shaves. I'm not so sure skin adjusts so very well.

I'm shaving with the Fatip Piccolo and using a Shallow-angle shaving technique. I'm thus riding the cap a little bit. My shaves with the Piccolo and with the Gentile, its brother, and with its cousin, the Schöne have been very smooth shaves, and also very comfortable.

Remarkably smooth.

Close is great, and I like it very much, but, for me, comfort is always #1.

Happy shaves,

Jim

My previous 6 shaves were shallow-angle. Today's shave was predominately steep angle. Comfort is job #1 for me too; I think it's primarily a question of pressure that's causing my current irritation. That's a fixable problem.

 

[Dovo1695]

I didnt think my NEW SC would be a mindless shaver, but after using my Grande for about 15 shaves and going back to my NEW SC for a single shave, it showed me it is a mindless shaver and I would think nothing of shaving blind in the shower with it. I'm not sure I'm there with the Grande, but I'm sure I could if I needed too. That may take more than my usual 5-7 minutes though.

It was probably a bit ambitious to start out with the Grande blind shaving like I have been. I might try shaving in the mirror for the first time in a long time tomorrow so I get some visual feedback.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

My previous 6 shaves were shallow-angle. Today's shave was predominately steep angle. Comfort is job #1 for me too; I think it's primarily a question of pressure that's causing my current irritation. That's a fixable problem.

Thanks.

 

[Dovo1695]

I thought I'd summarize and close the loop on my own rigid blade experiment. I had been using the RR Teck II almost exclusively for the past year, and although very mild, it's an extremely rigid razor, which I believe makes it an extremely smooth and comfortable shaver. I was curious to see if an aggressive razor could be as smooth and comfortable as the incredibly mild Teck II. For the past 10 days or so, I've been using another rigid razor design, the Fatip Grande. I find it to be a significantly more aggressive razor than the RR Teck II, although interestingly, it is every bit as smooth as my Teck II. With most razors, I experience unpleasant tugging on the coarse, thick, wiry red beard around my chin area. Both the Teck II and Grande are smooth as butter and just seem to glide through even the toughest areas.

I initially had trouble with the aggressiveness of the Grande, and had daily weepers and razor burn for about a week. Today I managed a perfect 3 pass BBS shave with no irritation whatsoever. The comfort level was on par with my Teck II. For the first 7 days, I blind-shaved in the shower as I typically do with my Teck II (no mirror). For the last couple days I have shaved in the mirror, and I think it really helped me figure the Grande out.

For me, I'm satisfied that there is a correlation between rigid design and a smooth, tug-free, comfortable shave. For me, the RR Teck II and Fatip Grande are equally smooth and comfortable despite being on opposite ends of the aggressiveness scale.

As a post-script, I should mention that the Grande is noticeably more efficient than the Teck II. I succeeded in doing a single pass, against the grain shave that was BBS on day 4 of my Grande experiment. Although it wasn't comfortable then, I'm pretty confident that now that I have my angles and pressure dialed in, I'll be able to do it comfortably now. Although efficiency isn't a priority for me, it's nice to know I can do a 2 min BBS shave with the Grande when I'm pressed for time.

 

[Esox]

For me, I'm satisfied that there is a correlation between rigid design and a smooth, tug-free, comfortable shave. For me, the RR Teck II and Fatip Grande are equally smooth and comfortable despite being on opposite ends of the aggressiveness scale.

Rigid designs equal smooth shaves, yes! If you get a tuggy shave from a razor that has a rigid design, the blade isnt sharp enough for your stubble.

If you get a harsh and uncomfortable shave from a razor with a rigid design, you havent found the proper angle, or perhaps, it has too much gap.

When you remove blade flex stemming from a lack of rigidity and gap from a razors design, you remove any mechanical advantage a razor may have had so the only things that help cut your stubble easier is proper prep and a blade thats sharp enough to cut the stubble without being felt. Ideally, you shouldnt feel the stubble being cut, only hear it, and with some blades in a very rigid design, that can even be difficult to hear.

The combination of the right blade in my Grande, Gillette Yellow, I felt nothing during the entire shave and heard very little, as quick a shave as it was. The razor literally felt like it didnt have a blade in it and yet gave me a single ATG buffing pass BBS shave, and a very close one at that.

Aggressive is a word I'm unsure about. If more efficient equals more aggressive, then so be it. I think of any razor that in use is difficult to hurt yourself with is less aggressive than a razor you might hurt yourself with more easily.

The Fatip family are unbelievably smooth, efficient and user friendly given the proper angle. The Muhle R41 for example, is a razor I'd call aggressive.

Try a single ATG buffing pass with a blade you'd call especially sharp for your stubble. I've only found two blades that will let me do that, but it does work surprisingly well with them.

 

[Cal]

I've only found two blades that will let me do that..

That statement SHOUTS at me that you still need to work on (refine) your angles. Of course I'm speaking from my own experience and not yours (YMMV and all that).

I'm finding that with continual (but easy) attention I'm getting great shaves with just about any blade I try. This definitely wasn't the case before. These days I will often pick a blade I didn't originally like and find it to be just excellent straight out of the wrapper, and for many subsequent shaves too.

 

[Esox]

That statement SHOUTS at me that you still need to work on (refine) your angles. Of course I'm speaking from my own experience and not yours (YMMV and all that).

I'm finding that with continual (but easy) attention I'm getting great shaves with just about any blade I try. This definitely wasn't the case before. These days I will often pick a blade I didn't originally like and find it to be just excellent straight out of the wrapper, and for many subsequent shaves too.

I can get a good 3 pass+ shave with virtually any blade. Some, like the Bic take an extra clean up or two but they all get me there.

For a single, only lathering once, ATG buffing pass, only two blades have given me the BBS finish with at most, one very light clean up over my swirls. Gillette Yellow and Polsilver.

Kai for example, took me 4 basically full passes, all done ATG, to get the same BBS shave I got from one pass with either of those blades.

In these Fatip razors, being so rigid and with such little gap, blade sharpness becomes very important for my shaves. The sharper the blade, the less passes I need.

What I dont understand is, how I'm relating that too sharpness. Derby Extra is not a blade most would call sharp, and yet they give me that same BBS shave in 2 passes and maybe a small clean up. Gillette Black, takes me 3 full passes. Most would agree the Gillette Black is a much sharper blade.

I'm not sure what the difference between blades is for me, but I suspect its the coating, or perhaps a particular coating, that cuts through my hair strands easier, or something. I dont know.

 

[Cal]

I don't know.

Not knowing is such fun!

The continual enigma of shaving. A fun journey that never ends.

 

[Esox]

Not knowing is such fun!

The continual enigma of shaving. A fun journey that never ends.

 

[Dovo1695]

For a single, only lathering once, ATG buffing pass, only two blades have given me the BBS finish with at most, one very light clean up over my swirls. Gillette Yellow and Polsilver.

I've been trying to get my hands on a some Gillette Yellows (SharpEdge) for a week, but Italian Barber has been out of them since I first looked. Also in my "cart" is Cella, and Haslinger Scafmilch, both of which are still out of stock. I understand the Haslinger, but how the heck does a shaving store run out of Cella and Gillette Yellows? It's a like dairy running out of milk & butter. I may have to bite the bullet on shipping and order a tuck from somewhere else.

 

[psfred]

Anti-friction coatings make a big difference in how the blade feels as it cuts the hair, probably more than how sharp the edge is. I suspect ALL blades are equally sharp in terms of proper apex diameter and grind quality, it's not that hard to do. What does differ is the coatings, the exact angle of the edge and hence perceived thickness, and the smoothness of the grind past the polished edge.

I'm finding very little difference in blades as I get better at shaving. Derby and Dorco felt "draggy" when I first started shaving, but eventually I'll get around to trying them again to see if that feel was a result of my technique rather than the actual blade. Not gonna happen soon, I'm only using up 4 or 5 blades a year currently.

What also matters quite a bit is good, slick lather. Not fluffy "cushion", just slickness. Shaved today with deliberatly thin lather from my home made tallow soap -- barely anything to rinse off after a full pass, and the second one actually dripped off the razor a bit since I added some more water. Very comfortable shave, nice and close, no irritation. Still feels nice 8 hours later, too.

 

[weekly]

Agreed, though sterilization is not really needed unless one is afraid of his own germs.

I find there is a lot of overkill among us folks who have shaving as a hobby. Whatever.

It is better to have it and not need it
Than to need it and not have it
Error on the side of having a razor that
Is Cleaner than necessary .

 

[Esox]

I've been trying to get my hands on a some Gillette Yellows (SharpEdge) for a week, but Italian Barber has been out of them since I first looked. Also in my "cart" is Cella, and Haslinger Scafmilch, both of which are still out of stock. I understand the Haslinger, but how the heck does a shaving store run out of Cella and Gillette Yellows? It's a like dairy running out of milk & butter. I may have to bite the bullet on shipping and order a tuck from somewhere else.

Try Maggards or Connaught .