Two french Friends are visiting me (Hone ID)

[Doorsch]

Here are some further two french friends....very interesting how far they travelled....

They were used from a german grandfather, probably for keeping his straights in condition but i do not really know...

Both looked like odd stones but i give it a try and both will have a new home here ;-)

1. in my point of view a Vosges / Vosgienne...it has a comparable pattern to the one i own already....light green inclusions on the other side red inclusions. Its visible on the slurry pics how different both sides look in colour...one sides slurry is brownish/red the other is more red then brown...

Iam shurely interested in other hints or tips concerning identification so probably Bayamonate or any other experienced can add a comment i would appreciate it...

A fast cutting stone leaving a very fine finish...i really like this one!!

Out if the Box:

Slurry brownish/red side:

Slurry red side:

Surface:

Inclusions green and red, sorry no daylight shots:

 

[Doorsch]

2. a french stone for using on fine tools and knifes...its a slate type stone very dark grey to black...the label which is hardly damaged has some information left. I could save some photos and tried to copy the label with a pencil...it states not to use with oil...and it was used for knives and fine tools...

Text:
"...Couteaux et outils...
"...N'est pas user à huile..."

Does anybody have seen that Symbol with a Kind of a Eye with a M in the middle it looks like beams are around the Eye, some letters RKE are visible...i first thought its German and the rest of "MARKE" though its french this does not fit...

 

[alx gilmore]

Sebastian
Really nice looking stones.
The red inclusions you mentioned look very familar. I am not certain that your stone with the red inclusion is a japanese hone but it is very similar. There is a chance that many of the natural stones that are fine enough for razors from no matter what country share some of the same components, that red spotting is one item on the list along with the clays and binders.

The red spots are Radiolarians and the shell that the radiolaria and diotoms leave behind are the secret cutting agent found Japanese hones and others. In Japan they call it "renge" (ren-gay) and some stones are rich with it and some are just spotted like yours. Again I am not saying that yours is a Jnat but it is indicitave or late Triassic and early Jurassic sedimentary stones, an era 225million years ago that created wide groups of sharpening stones we all use no matter if they have radiolarians you can easily see or not. I have mentioned these ancient fossils in a couple of articles on my website.

Alex

 

[Doorsch]

Thanks Alex for this geological explanation i heard about Renge in the terms of the JNATs which i do not own in a high number (2 or 3)....

Its a great fast cutting stones, after 40 laps the surface is full of black metal particles....so there is a enorm abrasive property on this one...

Can you pass me a link here or by PM iam shure i already know your site but i do not remembert now..

 

[Mike H]

Very cool, I have not heard the term radiolaria since junior year Invertebrate Paleontology class.

 

[Doorsch]

So there is some literature i would be really interested in:

"Upper Devonian Radiolaria from siliceous shales in Breuschtal Bruche Valley, North Vosges, France"

 

[alx gilmore]

Thanks Alex for this geological explanation i heard about Renge in the terms of the JNATs which i do not own in a high number (2 or 3)....

Its a great fast cutting stones, after 40 laps the surface is full of black metal particles....so there is a enorm abrasive property on this one...

Can you pass me a link here or by PM iam shure i already know your site but i do not remembert now..

Sebastain
Here is an article about stones from my site.


http://www.thejapanstone.com/Article_on_stonenote.html

best wishes,
Alex

 

[SliceOfLife]

The text you've gotten there says don't use oil in french. I think it goes on to say "or fat", but I'm not positive. Possibly a Thuri for the french market?

 

[Doorsch]

Here are some more shots of the stones, i really like these...they look very nice...

I took some detail shots of the surface and the inclusions in 10x and 20x i will also add one normal sized picture how the stones look....

The new one full size, the particles and the areas with different colours or inclusions in red or green are more homogenious...

Surface 10x

Surface 20x on red and green areas:

 

[Doorsch]

The text you've gotten there says don't use oil in french. I think it goes on to say "or fat", but I'm not positive. Possibly a Thuri for the french market?

Yes i also think fat or grease is mentioned, also "couteaux" and "outils" is visible....i have to test...its a fine slate and probably comparable to the Faso....

 

[Doorsch]

Here is the other Vosges i own...it quite more brown/reddish and not so homogenious there are huge areas with green spots...

The full size:

10x magnification:

20x magnification:

 

[alx gilmore]

So there is some literature i would be really interested in:

"Upper Devonian Radiolaria from siliceous shales in Breuschtal Bruche Valley, North Vosges, France"

Yes, look up that article.
I have told others here before that if you are interested in looking for new natural unknown sources of stones material for razors look at geological survey maps and studies near where you want to look and search for concentrations of radiolarium. Here in California very near where I live there are super high concentration along the Pacific ocean near San Francisco. I went out to look at them but the problem is the radiolarium are all locked up in very hard chert silica. For sharpening stone you need the radiolarium to be mixed with clay and soft binders that allow the radiolaria to do the sharpening without interferiance from any hard binding material. This is why the Jnats are so unique, they are bound up in a soft clay type material leaving the silica to be the only active cutting. The Coticules I think are the same with their garnets found within compressed clays.

The radiolaria are easily crushed into smaller cutting particles, they are friable. Garnets are not easlily crushed. So the Jnat has the ability for the silica grit (radiolaria) to easily crush under the weight of a razor from a 8,000 grit size to 16 or 32,000 grit during use. Jnats are totally unique to the world in this way, the high concentration of radiolarian and the relatively soft clay binders.

Alex

 

[Doorsch]

Yes, look up that article.
I have told others here before that if you are interested in looking for new natural unknown sources of stones material for razors look at geological survey maps and studies near where you want to look and search for concentrations of radiolarium. Here in California very near where I live there are super high concentration along the Pacific ocean near San Francisco. I went out to look at them but the problem is the radiolarium are all locked up in very hard chert silica. For sharpening stone you need the radiolarium to be mixed with clay and soft binders that allow the radiolaria to do the sharpening without interferiance from any hard binding material. This is why the Jnats are so unique, they are bound up in a soft clay type material leaving the silica to be the only active cutting. The Coticules I think are the same with their garnets found within compressed clays.

The radiolaria are easily crushed into smaller cutting particles, they are friable. Garnets are not easlily crushed. So the Jnat has the ability for the silica grit (radiolaria) to easily crush under the weight of a razor from a 8,000 grit size to 16 or 32,000 grit during use. Jnats are totally unique to the world in this way, the high concentration of radiolarian and the relatively soft clay binders.

Alex

Alex if this is how it works comparable to Jnats would it then not be the best to use these stones with a slurry ? If these stones really have these radiolaria included and these will crush when using the stone it might have the same effect as on a Jnat...

Iam shure that both examples are not from Japanese sources, but as you put up this thing up iam really interested in it...up to date nobody put up any evidence on the french special stones like the Voges / Vosgienne stones...

I mean there are a lot of historical sources where traces can be found, there are people around saying the stones come from there...but there is up to date no real evidence or any quarry found...

So Up to date these Vosges Stones are always said to be used with oil only...and with certain light strokes that the Edge will not be destroyed or crumble...i think that others already tried the slurry thing but o dont know...

 

[Gamma]

I belive So-san was the first person to make the radiola connection known online, when he published that wonderful yet long essay on his website. He also shared this info in the knife forums freely.

Thing about Renge is this - every learned person that I've ever talked to about Jnats, Suita in particular, has said that Renge is a visual aesthetic, and has nothing to do with cutting.
Was Renge formed from radiola?
Well - if it was, then wouldnt it enhance cutting? - right? But that really doesn't seem to be the case, seems to be more of a myth or old-wives-tale really.

Many woodworkers using Suita for decades upon decades have shared with me that the fastest and best Suita are all white - and that the presence of Renge reduces the 'quality' of the stone. Beautiful, yes - functionality enhancement - not so much.
In my own experience, I've found this to be true - the two best cuting Suita I've owned have been pure white.

 

[Alum of Potash]

So there is some literature i would be really interested in:

"Upper Devonian Radiolaria from siliceous shales in Breuschtal Bruche Valley, North Vosges, France"

Is there a link to this article?

From the fragmentary label, I make out: ". . . des [cou]teaux et outils . . ." and ". . . ne pas user d'huile et ne gr . . . ."

 

[alx gilmore]

Keith
I agree with you, the two best or the twenty best suita stones that I have are all pure white too. I do not feel that the presence of renge detracts from the cutting power, does renge contribute, of course it does. Renge is just one of the colors that the radiolarian survive as in their fossil form, white is another.

So Yamashita-san is often quoted on the various forums. He attended Berkeley and speaks and writes excellent english, his knowledge about japanese natural stones is pretty amazing but sadly he does not contribute to any of the forums much anymore including the flagship forum of his Australias Wood Working Forum that contained many good Wiki articles
http://www.woodworkforums.com/search.php?searchid=3568327&pp=&page=3

and the woodworking forum that encouraged him to write the long article you often hear bring up time and again TheJapaneseWoodworking forum


So-san created that long article/essay on his website you mentioned to help out and clarify a whole bunch of questions that fellows had on that American woodworking forum. So-san is an expert woodworker but has slightly less interested in shaving as this forum sadly displays. I wish he would contribute again.

Here is a pertinent So-san quote from that JapaneseWoodWorking forum;

"Hi Peter,

Oh, good question! The Renge and Momiji patterns found in whiter Suita are consisted of quartz, thus have higher cutting effect. Not as strong as diamonds, and that's good because diamonds would be great with coarse stones, but with finishing stones way too hard.

Thanks

So"
Tuesday June 19th 2007 TheJapaneseWoodworking Forum

here is a link to that discussion http://japanesewoodworking.com/phpB...it=renge&sid=63984f2753869de1d8a145708794f93a

A very interesting thread, but also telling because is displays that So-sans knowledge about stones, although enormous when comparred to us other fellows at the time, was still being drawn from his father as So-san was learning sort of "on the job" so to speak.

As it turns out, So-sans main love in life is surfing, not sharpening stones.

Hope this helps.

Alex

 

[Doorsch]

Thanks again Alex, thats a great read!!

 

[Doorsch]

Is there a link to this article?

From the fragmentary label, I make out: ". . . des [cou]teaux et outils . . ." and ". . . ne pas user d'huile et ne gr . . . ."

Alan, thats the one i sent you by Email which is only German....found no english version of it...only the short inteoduction is in english


And yes these were the only french phrases i could read on that one....

 

[Gamma]

Alex - none of the Suita with Renge that I've owned, have had Renge that contribute to sharpening.
None. Zero. Nada.

I have had Suita Tomo --- many of them. Some with Renge on one side, none on the other.
The white side cuts, the Renge side was way less effective. That's why I started looking into this.
I do have Suita Tomo with lots of Renge that work well - but the cutting isn't from the Renge. Just happens to be a good stone.
If that stone had no Renge, it would cut much better.

I believe I mentioned that no one I've discussed this topic with - Japanese people in the trade, not forum gurus - says that Renge adds anything to the cutting power. Many have said Renge lowers the quality of the stone - I don't know that I entirely agree there - but I get their point. If the Renge isn't cutting, then the quality is lower.

As for So-sans comment, well - I'm not going to be the one to blow the whistle on that circus, but let me say this - I've taken him off the pedestal and for good reason. You might want to do some research on the topic yourself.
Just sayin', might want to reconsider your sources.


If you want to copy/paste information, fine - check out what JimR posted about on this topic.
I believe that you can find what I'm referring to in his dictionary under 'Renge'.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Alan, thats the one i sent you by Email which is only German....found no english version of it...only the short inteoduction is in english

Ah, okay. Thanks for letting me know.