No, no, no, no, no!
My eyes!
What about Lynda Carter!?
WHAT ABOUT LYNDA CARTER!!!
AA
wrong. so wrong.
I was right to run away.
Still think open carry is a great idea?
- Thread starter Acmemfg
- Start date
No, no, no, no, no!
My eyes!
What about Lynda Carter!?
WHAT ABOUT LYNDA CARTER!!!
AA
wrong. so wrong.
I was right to run away.
My eyes have been cleansed.
Good post David. While I wouldn't debate, with any of your individual points on "Concealed vs. Open Carry." The main reason why I wouldn't is because, of today's current climate, culture and attitudes towards open carry.
Wait for it, here it comes...
However, If we kept many of the excellent points you made in the "hypothetical framework" of what we had been discussing of, "if the culture was different" sort of like it is in the long time open carry state of Arizona.But since Arizona seems to be the single anomaly among the states with an open carry culture that statistically, seems to do absolutely awesome with open carry, I won't debate any of your points.
But I would like to respectively rebuttal against this one single bolded part of your post:
@dojpros says,
"I would note that no trainer of note recommends open carry when concealed carry (CC) is permitted.
YMMV greatly.
So are you saying, this bolded is from some type of "official record"? If it is, can you link it to us here? Or is it your personal opinion alone? The reason I ask is, because you said YMMV greatly afterwards, which made the first part sound matter of fact and the second part sounded more like a whatever?
I would respectively suggest, a "noted trainer" who is teaching a state mandated curriculum to receive a state permit/license and they are at their training facility, teaching a state mandated class for a state weapon's permit.
And it is located in a state that allows for concealed and open carry? This state in which they reside, has a governmental agency / organization who supervises, constructs policy, procedures and a state mandated curriculum, for their armed citizens in training for a state weapon's permit?
I can tell you, as noted trainers, who have to abide by those states agencies rules and regulations, in which they train and reside, they can and will teach "the pro's and con's of concealed and open carry." The state curriculum will mandate this.
But what they can't or won't allow and the trainers, at least shouldn't do, if they don't want to violate a state mandate and get their licenses revoked in that particular state. They cannot, will not, or are at least not supposed to, teach one versus the other.
Many states who have both options of carry, mandate and do not allow, permit instructors to give " their personal opinions" of why only "one is good" and the "other is bad." If they do this and violate the state's mandates not to do this? Can they really be considered "noted" trainers? There are many famous and "noted trainers" in the world, who will teach you their ways and their opinions of how to "run & gun" and be a complete studmuffin' with a gun.
But if they're teaching a state mandated class? For a state weapon's permit/license? They better keep their opinions out of it and stick to the state mandated curriculum.
OSBI Permit curriculum in my state, is very strict about teaching only the positives and negatives of both types of carry options individually and under their own weight and merits and allow the students to come to their own conclusions. They cannot, as "noted trainers" tell that state mandated and supervised class that one way absolutely sucks and the other way, is the only right and sensible way to carry.
I'm not saying or denying, the many famous instructors you have mentioned receiving your tutelage from, hasn't done or said just that. I'm saying if they did, in a state who allows both? They usually have strict mandates on what their instructors say and don't say.
And their permit instructors are not allowed to use, their own personal opinions to go against, sway or change the minds of their students, who are in and under state mandated requirements that insist on the teaching of the benefits and merits of both, concealed and open carry without disparaging either with their personal opinions.
Just tellin' it like it is.
A "noted trainer" would not break these state agencies mandated policies and curriculum for a state weapon's permit. Unless they want to risk the wrath of the state. I'm sure some probably do, but they ain't supposed too.
I'm not saying, that after a citizen has received this state permit, under state regulated and mandated curriculum, that this same student, can then go pay their money; and go to a private training facility of their choice, like Gunsite or Thunder Ranch or any numerous self proposed gun guru and they can talk to them all day about how bad open carry is.
It's like when getting your state's driver's license. When taking that driver's test, you better keep your hands at the state mandated 10 and 2, no matter if a "noted driver's trainer says, you should put your hands at the bottom of the steering wheel at 5 and 7 like all the Europeans do.
That may be his expert opinion, but it goes against the state's mandated curriculum for driver's license testing and the passing thereof. A noted trainer, won't be "noted" for long if he doesn't follow the state curriculum to the letter.
Nope, you have to wait and get the driver's license first, the way the state mandates and tells you to. Then you can go find a famous law enforcement driving trainer at an expensive facility, who can and will then tell you to throw 10 and 2 out the window and then teach you how to shuffle steer and serpentine.
He can give his expert opinion, but not while working to teach a state mandated permit with mandated curriculum.
YMMV greatly.
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I apologize Mike. I just assumed you would like Wonder WoMEN over Wonder Woman? You know, like, more is really MORE? Not less is more?
This! Respectful honesty should be the norm, but it is rare. I am grateful that it is often the norm here.Respectful honesty in discussion, is refreshing. Regardless if it’s for or against the subject matter. Never be hesitant in what you want to express.
Short of politics of course.
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I had 27 years military service, 10 years active, 10 inactive reserve( still subject to recall) and 7 active reserve so knew and followed hat etiquette. I like to wear full blown hats, fedora or western. Most restaurants an other establishments no longer have hat check service. I am not about to place a $200-$400 hat on an unattended rack for fear that it will "walk off" so what does one do. If a spare seat is available I will place it there, if such a place is unavailable it stays on my head, the safest place, and never, never on a dirty floor.
You have never driven home from work with me. I think the 18 miles between Dallas and Carrollton have 28 million people sometimes.
OK, I finally got caught up. My only additional comment is that black men do not look any more scary in a cowboy hat. Just look at Joel Patrick. Grin. And if you don't have a cowboy hat, regardless of your skin, you absolutely need one. [emoji16]
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I apologize Mike. I just assumed you would like Wonder WoMEN over Wonder Woman? You know, like, more is really MORE? Not less is more?
Sir; I am on your side...
But for this photo. Let the guns remain concealed, and Wonder Woman as she is.
Amen.
AA
I have 3 straw for everyday and only one nice felt for steppin' out, steppin' in and dosey doe. Even got some nice Ostrich kickers all spurred up to go with em.' Problem is we never go anywhere fancy anymore it seems, in order to get to wear em.'
I ain't takin' my felt Resistol to Texas Road House. Easter Sunday, is bout' the only time I get to wear it anymore. Maybe my two last youngin's weddings and my funeral and that's bout it.
I am so enjoying this.
I have trouble with traffic in San Antonio, Houston, and Dallas. It’s bad enough here in McAllen.
I have trouble with traffic in San Antonio, Houston, and Dallas. It’s bad enough here in McAllen.
Sir; I am on your side...
Let the guns remain concealed, and Wonder Woman as she is.
Amen.
AA
Wonder Woman and I Dream of Genie. Two of the most beautiful in all the world.
It would seem to me, a state as big and wide as Texas, wouldn't be so cramped with folk?
Nice! I only have two, one straw and one leather. Folks tend to look twice around here, I really enjoy them.I have 3 straw for everyday and only one nice felt for steppin' out, steppin' in and dosey doe. Even got some nice Ostrich kickers all spurred up to go with em.' Problem is we never go anywhere fancy anymore it seems, in order to get to wear em.'
I ain't takin' my felt Resistol to Texas Road House. Easter Sunday, is bout' the only time I get to wear it anymore. Maybe my two last youngin's weddings and my funeral and that's bout it.
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OKS
IIRC, We did a variation of this dance 5 years ago. And on the SERPA and on letting officers back out on the street with non OEM mag extensions after their non OEM mag extensions malfunctioned during an agency qualification but OK -
I will qualify "trainers of note"" to include only the following from whom I have received instruction or have 1st hand knowledge of their training/curriculum based on conversations with those in the class. By "trainers of note" I was referring to those with national reputations teaching handgun classes, not a basic CCW course that is mandated to follow a state curriculum.
For purposes of this discussion (on the sole point of open carrying when concealed carry is legal and available) that would include the following Cadre/Trainers:
Trained With Personally
Gunsite
Thunder Ranch (Clint Smith)
EAG Training- Pat Rogers (RIP)
Todd Louis Green (RIP)
Rangemaster (Tom Givens)
John Hearne
Cumberland Tactics (Randy Cain)
Trained with others in the above classes who have trained with
Jeff Gonzales
Kyle Defoor
John McPhee
Pat McNamara
Paul Howe
Having lived in AZ for a summer, trained AZ at Gunsite ( 5 days 1000 rds handgun class), worked in AZ while with USDOJ, and trained in AZ with USDOJ (non firearms), I would acknowledge that parts of AZ, (and NM, and TX) are more open carry friendly in terms of custom and practice.
In my opinion, based on my experience and conversations I have had with the hundreds of students I have trained with on my own dime and time in (AZ, TX, OK, TN, KS, MO and NM) for every one well set up open carrier who was carrying a quality firearm, in a quality holster, mated with a quality belt, with decent situational awareness, one sees 10+ folks who are simply low hanging fruit. This view has been nearly universally held by every agency (local/state/federal) trainer I have ever trained with when the open carry subject came up as well.
In this world, the real world, there are folks out there who are alpha predators. There are also folks who simply do not have particularly well tuned behavior/consequence sensibilities. As such, they make potential victim/adversaries to be eliminated selections very quickly. Some of them actually train. There are taken lightly at one's peril. Telling the world you might be one who can fight back is one less statement one should choose to make.
I will decline the opportunity to forfeit any tactical advantage by open carrying out in the world, all day, every day and 2x on Sunday. Period. End of Subject. Full Stop.
Here comes a firebomb-Most folk who open carry, particularly those who do it poorly with sub par weapons in a sub par holster on sub par belts do it, not because they have weighed the pros and cons and made a meaningful choice-they do it it is because it is cheaper and/or they are lazy as it costs real money to effectively conceal and dress around a quality weapon, particularly in temperature extremes. And/or they want folks to think they are LEOS.
OKS -Out of curiosity- who have you trained with outside of your agency (ies)?
IIRC, We did a variation of this dance 5 years ago. And on the SERPA and on letting officers back out on the street with non OEM mag extensions after their non OEM mag extensions malfunctioned during an agency qualification but OK -
I will qualify "trainers of note"" to include only the following from whom I have received instruction or have 1st hand knowledge of their training/curriculum based on conversations with those in the class. By "trainers of note" I was referring to those with national reputations teaching handgun classes, not a basic CCW course that is mandated to follow a state curriculum.
For purposes of this discussion (on the sole point of open carrying when concealed carry is legal and available) that would include the following Cadre/Trainers:
Trained With Personally
Gunsite
Thunder Ranch (Clint Smith)
EAG Training- Pat Rogers (RIP)
Todd Louis Green (RIP)
Rangemaster (Tom Givens)
John Hearne
Cumberland Tactics (Randy Cain)
Trained with others in the above classes who have trained with
Jeff Gonzales
Kyle Defoor
John McPhee
Pat McNamara
Paul Howe
Having lived in AZ for a summer, trained AZ at Gunsite ( 5 days 1000 rds handgun class), worked in AZ while with USDOJ, and trained in AZ with USDOJ (non firearms), I would acknowledge that parts of AZ, (and NM, and TX) are more open carry friendly in terms of custom and practice.
In my opinion, based on my experience and conversations I have had with the hundreds of students I have trained with on my own dime and time in (AZ, TX, OK, TN, KS, MO and NM) for every one well set up open carrier who was carrying a quality firearm, in a quality holster, mated with a quality belt, with decent situational awareness, one sees 10+ folks who are simply low hanging fruit. This view has been nearly universally held by every agency (local/state/federal) trainer I have ever trained with when the open carry subject came up as well.
In this world, the real world, there are folks out there who are alpha predators. There are also folks who simply do not have particularly well tuned behavior/consequence sensibilities. As such, they make potential victim/adversaries to be eliminated selections very quickly. Some of them actually train. There are taken lightly at one's peril. Telling the world you might be one who can fight back is one less statement one should choose to make.
I will decline the opportunity to forfeit any tactical advantage by open carrying out in the world, all day, every day and 2x on Sunday. Period. End of Subject. Full Stop.
Here comes a firebomb-Most folk who open carry, particularly those who do it poorly with sub par weapons in a sub par holster on sub par belts do it, not because they have weighed the pros and cons and made a meaningful choice-they do it it is because it is cheaper and/or they are lazy as it costs real money to effectively conceal and dress around a quality weapon, particularly in temperature extremes. And/or they want folks to think they are LEOS.
OKS -Out of curiosity- who have you trained with outside of your agency (ies)?
The original Wonder Woman of course.Wonder Woman and I Dream of Genie. Two of the most beautiful in all the world.
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