I only suggest some alcohol in place of an anti-microbial, especially for use after shaving. A 14% alcohol ratio will be a much smaller percentage once diluted with other ingredients.
Sue
Witch Hazel Question
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I only suggest some alcohol in place of an anti-microbial, especially for use after shaving. A 14% alcohol ratio will be a much smaller percentage once diluted with other ingredients.
Sue
Sue, can I PM you? I have a question or two...
You sure can, or email is fine too. I will answer tomorrow though......I just looked at the time! Sheesh where did the day go?
Sue
Sue
Thanks! I have to turn in too, so I'll send it tomorrow as well. 'Nite!
OH my, I just read a large portion of this thread but not all. I don't want to open old disputes but would like to add my input from my prospective as a maker and as a vendor of products. For what it's worth....
Distillates and hydrosols are the purified water from the production of essential oil from plant material, by steam. Sometimes, the plant is not used for essential oil production, just for the production of the distillate or hysrosol. Hydrosols and distillates retain all the healing properties of the plant.
You can buy pure hydrosols or distillates in many fragrances and for the properties of the plant used; i.e., rose water, ylang ylang, lavender, rosemary, etc. I have and use several different hydrosols in our recipes.
There isn't a 'witch hazel' essential oil, (it would smell yuk IMO) but the plant is used for the production of the hydrosol or distillate itself. Witch Hazel Hydrosol is called 'Hammamelis virginiana' in INCI nomenclature.
Witch hazel hydrosol is the same as water and contains no alcohol when purchased specifically for use in cosmetics as, "hammamelis virginiana".
Witch Hazel hydrosol is used as an ingredient to tone and cleanse. It can be added to many products in addition to or else in the place of water. You will find it in our aftershaves; some with and some without alcohol.
The local drug store is not the place to shop for high quality cosmetic grade ingredients or additives to make cosmetics in my humble opinion. The price structure of the ingredients would be a plus but you are getting what you paid for. This is my opinion and of course I could be wrong.
Sue
Distillates and hydrosols are the purified water from the production of essential oil from plant material, by steam. Sometimes, the plant is not used for essential oil production, just for the production of the distillate or hysrosol. Hydrosols and distillates retain all the healing properties of the plant.
You can buy pure hydrosols or distillates in many fragrances and for the properties of the plant used; i.e., rose water, ylang ylang, lavender, rosemary, etc. I have and use several different hydrosols in our recipes.
There isn't a 'witch hazel' essential oil, (it would smell yuk IMO) but the plant is used for the production of the hydrosol or distillate itself. Witch Hazel Hydrosol is called 'Hammamelis virginiana' in INCI nomenclature.
Witch hazel hydrosol is the same as water and contains no alcohol when purchased specifically for use in cosmetics as, "hammamelis virginiana".
Witch Hazel hydrosol is used as an ingredient to tone and cleanse. It can be added to many products in addition to or else in the place of water. You will find it in our aftershaves; some with and some without alcohol.
The local drug store is not the place to shop for high quality cosmetic grade ingredients or additives to make cosmetics in my humble opinion. The price structure of the ingredients would be a plus but you are getting what you paid for. This is my opinion and of course I could be wrong.
Sue
Thayers lists "Hammamelis Virginiana extract" as one of its ingredients. I wonder what an extract of a distillate is. The ingredients say it is a Thayers proprietary extract.
Also, although the front label says "Witch Hazel with Aloe Vera", the ingresients list Aloe Vera before Hammamelis Virginiana.
according to American Distilling their witch hazel distillate does contain alcohol!
http://www.americandistilling.com/faqs.htm
And they claim to be the worlds largest producer of distilled witch hazel
http://www.americandistilling.com/main.html
Distillates CAN contain alcohol. It they did not then all distilled spirits would be non alcoholic and the last time I drank any gin it was certainly alcoholic!
Also realize that many essential oils, distallates, and hydrosols contian naturally occurring alcohols. For example, rose oil contain citronellol, geraniol, nerol, linalool, and farnesol (terpene alcohols) in addition to naturally occurring benzyl alcohol and phenyl ethyl alcohol. This is not any added ingredient but naturally occurring constituents of the distallate. In fact, if these alcohols were removed we would no longer have rose oil!
Hydrosols (which are also distilled) do contain some essential oil so they contain some alcohol also. It is the nature of steam distillation that anything with a boiling point less than water will be in the distillate.
I will add that distillation is not the only method to produce essential oils. Solvent extraction and mechanical presses are also used, depending on the material.
Hydrosols are also produced by steam distillation and will include any of the substances that have a boiling point less than water. Therefore many of the natural alcohols present in the plant will be present in the distillate. If they were not you would not have a hydrosol!
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Maybe that's the answer to my question. Thayers has removed the alcohol, and done so with a process they are proud of.
To me the question is why do typical preparations labelled "witch hazel" in retail stores list 14% alcohol, but Thayer's "witch hazel" says it is alcohol free? What is the fundamental difference?
Maybe I don't understand the question, but the difference is the alcohol, right?
Now Thayers has additional ingredients, but that is different issue, I think.
I'm sure their ingredient list is FDA compliant so there is more aloe vera than witch hazel.
"Proprietary" means there is enough cash flow to pay for the high legal cost of "Proprietary" ingredients.
The only thing we have that is proprietary is our recipes in a school looseleaf notebook or stored in the teeny tiny hard drive of my memory.
Sue
I guess I didn't ask the question clearly enough.
I've heard some people say that alcohol is a natural byproduct of the process of distilling or making a hydrosol of witch hazel. If that were the case, all witch hazel preparations should contain alcohol.
I'm wondering what sort of method Thayer's uses in order to make a preparation of "witch hazel" that doesn't contain any alcohol.
My guess above was a "proprietary extraction". As to listing alcohol, I'm pretty sure that ingredient needs to be listed no matter how it got there.
EDIT: To expand. A possibility is that Thayers prepares witch hazel the "traditional" way (like Dicknensons) but then use their proprietary method to remove the alcohol (and odor).
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Alcohol is a general term, which has been covered.
The 14% alcohol in witch hazels is probably denatured alcohol (ethanol), though I don't have any here to confirm that. It is a great solvent for the naturally occuring organic materials found in witch hazel bark. Water alone would probably not be enough to solvate ALL of the naturally occuring components in witch hazel, as there are no doubt components that are not water soluble. Still, Thayer's alcohol free could be water based and just do without whatever is not water soluble.
However, other organic solvents would probably work well too. How about a glycerin witch hazel extraction or mineral oil or any number of other organic liquids. Alcohol is not a magic material that makes witch hazel something special, it just extracts components that might not be soluble in water.
The 14% alcohol in witch hazels is probably denatured alcohol (ethanol), though I don't have any here to confirm that. It is a great solvent for the naturally occuring organic materials found in witch hazel bark. Water alone would probably not be enough to solvate ALL of the naturally occuring components in witch hazel, as there are no doubt components that are not water soluble. Still, Thayer's alcohol free could be water based and just do without whatever is not water soluble.
However, other organic solvents would probably work well too. How about a glycerin witch hazel extraction or mineral oil or any number of other organic liquids. Alcohol is not a magic material that makes witch hazel something special, it just extracts components that might not be soluble in water.
If that is true so would all steam distillates or hydrosols. Rose, lavender, etc. Who we purchase from states clealry in their product descriptions: NO alcohol
Sue
Those distillates and hydrosols DO contain small amounts of certain natural alcohols, but not the ethyl alcohol that is used as a solvent or preservative. Remember that "alcohol" is a general term form a group of materials, not a single chemical
Sue, you suppliers probably mean no alcohol is added as an ingredient and not in reference to the natural alcohols extracted from the plants.
Sue, you suppliers probably mean no alcohol is added as an ingredient and not in reference to the natural alcohols extracted from the plants.
Rose, Lavender, or basically any plant that contains carbohydrates are going to contain a varying amount of alcohol in its steam distillate. Distillates such as those that claim to be alcohol free fall into two categories- either they are using the "alcohol free" tag as liberally as possible since they didn't technically "add" any alcohol; or if they truly are alcohol free then they have been further distilled to a point that isolates the alcohol. There is also a third possibility, but it is not used often in cosmetic applications since the cost would often prohibit it, but basically in a "purified" distillate the alcohol would be chemically separated to a point that would be impossible with conventional steam distillation.
The above though, is still irrelevant to Witch Hazel, which is distilled only once and produces a yield of 14% total alcohol content.
I think part of the confusion on this issue comes from statements like this off the witch hazel wikipedia page link:
http://www.stevenfoster.com/education/monograph/witchhazel.html
The way I read the above quote is that the distillers take witch hazel bush pulp, steam distill it, then take that distillate and add ethyl alcohol (grain alcohol) to 14%. Therefore, I can see how people are confused - why can't you take the distillate and add 10% ethyl alcohol or 20%? If I understand what you are saying ClubmanRob, the simple act of steam distilling witch hazel pulp leaves a distillate that is naturally 14% alcohol (not ethyl alcohol added but naturally occurring alcohols). Then why does something as authoritative as a wiki page
001_rolle) say that ethyl alcohol is added to the distillate?
Again, if I read what you are saying correctly, then extracting witch hazel pulp (by any method) will result in a hydrosol or distillate that is 14% alcohol?
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http://www.stevenfoster.com/education/monograph/witchhazel.html
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The way I read the above quote is that the distillers take witch hazel bush pulp, steam distill it, then take that distillate and add ethyl alcohol (grain alcohol) to 14%. Therefore, I can see how people are confused - why can't you take the distillate and add 10% ethyl alcohol or 20%? If I understand what you are saying ClubmanRob, the simple act of steam distilling witch hazel pulp leaves a distillate that is naturally 14% alcohol (not ethyl alcohol added but naturally occurring alcohols). Then why does something as authoritative as a wiki page
001_rolle) say that ethyl alcohol is added to the distillate?Again, if I read what you are saying correctly, then extracting witch hazel pulp (by any method) will result in a hydrosol or distillate that is 14% alcohol?
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