UEFA 2012, Champions league, etc.

[Indigo3]

You're living in the dark ages my friend, and getting the ball by trying to rough house Barca/Spain mostly doesn't work. Mourinho used to try it with Madrid and came unstuck, Holland tried it at the last World Cup final and came unstuck. Not only does their physical size bely their actual power and stamina, their actual skill levels are superior, these players can receive and give a pass before opponents can get near and the space they leave is exploited. If only it was just a case of getting the ball.

Well, I'm of the opinion that teams are too afraid to tackle against "Tiki taka". 'The 2009 Champions League Final showed what happens when you try. Throw in an easily-fooled referee and....*shrug* So players stand off the ball too much and give Spain or Barca far too much room. Again, again, and again I bring up Istanbul 2005. I'm not even a Liverpool fan but they showed that you GO AND GET THE BALL from teams that are keeping it. It involves rough football though. And refs seem to favor protecting players who play pretty-like.

But Italy also did Spain favors in this game by having their defense go to sleep for the last 2 goals.

 

[Emmerson-Biggins]

Spain's defense was epic. They played tight, smart and clean. Hail Mary passes to Balotelli were shut down by Ramos over and over again. Although Balotelli did have a nice looking, possible BBS, shave on his head. I wonder if he uses proraso?

 

[commanderkeen]

Spain's defense was epic. They played tight, smart and clean. Hail Mary passes to Balotelli were shut down by Ramos over and over again. Although Balotelli did have a nice looking, possible BBS, shave on his head. I wonder if he uses proraso?

Probably Acqua di Parma.

 

[jmorris]

I'm about to court controversy again, but I'll say it....Brazil is overrated. They haven't been any good in 10 years. Homefield advantage MIGHT tell in 2014, but I'm not ready to say whether they'll be in the Final. But Spain...I'm not sure they've peaked yet. It's scary to think the core of this team still has a few years left in it. We could very well see 4 straight titles.

Just curious; what are some of the latest games Brasil played that you watched? Did you watch their most recent game with Argentina?

 

[jmorris]

In regards to the final yesterday, it was very difficult to watch. Italy didn't have many good touches on the ball and when they were able to put some shots on net, Casillas really came up big. I would say the nail in the coffin was going down a man. Hats off to Spain though because they played a near perfect game. I don't foresee them winning the WC at this point as I believe there are a few national teams out there that would be able to take them out of their game.

 

[johnniegold]

Spain played an excellent game. Congrats to them. They simply dominated the Italian team. Their passing sequences were tremendous as well as precise. It was a spectacle to behold.

 

[Kevan]

Just curious; what are some of the latest games Brasil played that you watched? Did you watch their most recent game with Argentina?

Look, every football fan wants a strong Brazil (and several South American teams) because it's what makes the World Cup compelling. But a compelling derby against a rival and wins against the US (as if that's difficult) and Denmark (again...really difficult...) and over Bosnia thanks to an own goal does not make me think they are the same team as the Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Ronaldo, and Ronaldinho era. Not only did that team keep the ball like Spain, other teams hated playing against them because you couldn't score against them, and if you did, you couldn't keep the lead very long. This team seems to struggle against better European opposition.

We'll see what happens in 2 years. It'll at least be fun to see. I wasn't alive the last time a World Cup was in Brazil.

 

[Kevan]

You're living in the dark ages my friend, and getting the ball by trying to rough house Barca/Spain mostly doesn't work. Mourinho used to try it with Madrid and came unstuck, Holland tried it at the last World Cup final and came unstuck. Not only does their physical size bely their actual power and stamina, their actual skill levels are superior, these players can receive and give a pass before opponents can get near and the space they leave is exploited. If only it was just a case of getting the ball.

I think what matters here is the players themselves, not Tiki Taka. Everyone forgets that Swansea City plays the same system and plenty of teams beat them last year.

 

[jmorris]

Look, every football fan wants a strong Brazil (and several South American teams) because it's what makes the World Cup compelling. But a compelling derby against a rival and wins against the US (as if that's difficult) and Denmark (again...really difficult...) and over Bosnia thanks to an own goal does not make me think they are the same team as the Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Ronaldo, and Ronaldinho era. Not only did that team keep the ball like Spain, other teams hated playing against them because you couldn't score against them, and if you did, you couldn't keep the lead very long. This team seems to struggle against better European opposition.

We'll see what happens in 2 years. It'll at least be fun to see. I wasn't alive the last time a World Cup was in Brazil.

You didn't answer the question. At any rate, the Brasil national team that has been playing as of late is their U-23 squad that will represent the country in the Olympics. It isn't their squad that will represent them at the WC. Given how the U-23 has played against the national teams who have been playing them with their best representation, I'd have to say that Brasil is going to be an absolute monster in the WC, especially with it being at home.

Of course, as we say in the world of sports, anything can happen. I still think it is a bit naive to believe that the Brasil national team is over rated though.

Germany will also be a power house. Another 2 years is plenty of time for that national squad to develop even more to become a contender to win it all.

 

[Kevan]

I did not watch the games. I say they are overrated because they were continually talked up despite going out with a whimper in the last 2 World Cups. I am not prejudiced against South American teams, but they aren't what they used to be. Especially Brazil, Argentina, Colombia. So if Brazil wins a Copa or a Confederations Cup it doesn't make me think they're the team they were a decade ago, though it certainly didn't help that Kaka struggled with form and injury and Adriano went into obscurity. I'll watch them during the Olympics and see though.

 

[jmorris]

The Brasil U-23 team is full of incredible talent. Some of the players that I think are very exciting to watch are Neymar, Ganso, Lucas, Rafael, Oscar, just to name a few.

What about Uruguay? They put on a great performance in the last WC and won the most recent Copa America.

 

[Indigo3]

I think what matters here is the players themselves, not Tiki Taka. Everyone forgets that Swansea City plays the same system and plenty of teams beat them last year.

I didn't suggest that all you need to do is play rough football against Barca/Spain's Tika Taka and GO AND GET THE BALL, you did (#561) Frankly that's just naive, just look at the records, if it were that simple to neutralize Barca/Spain they wouldn't have won the majority of championships they have entered in the last three or four years. Of course playing a system without the requisite players means very little but as for Swansea City's record, for a relatively small team to be newly promoted to the EPL and finish mid table by playing in that style is quite impressive which is why Brendan Rodgers now has the Liverpool job.

 

[Kevan]

Well yeah, that's exactly what I mean. You need good players or else it doesn't work like it should. I'm not ragging on Swansea. For a newly-promoted team to stay in comfort the entire season they did a great job last year. But they were beaten 15 times (and 14 matches the year before, in the Championship). Trying to play like Barcelona doesn't exactly make you Barcelona and if the system was so peerless, they'd be in the Champion's League places for 12/13.

As for Brendan Rodgers, I don't think he's the answer to Liverpool's problems but that's just me. I think he can succeed if he gets several years to sort things out. But I don't know if that'll be the case.

 

[mretzloff]

When Italy wins, we all win.

I can assure you that is most definitely not the case

You're living in the dark ages my friend, and getting the ball by trying to rough house Barca/Spain mostly doesn't work. Mourinho used to try it with Madrid and came unstuck, Holland tried it at the last World Cup final and came unstuck. Not only does their physical size bely their actual power and stamina, their actual skill levels are superior, these players can receive and give a pass before opponents can get near and the space they leave is exploited. If only it was just a case of getting the ball.

It worked for The Netherlands. Yes, they lost, but it also took Spain 116 minutes to score. Rough house=116 minutes to score. No rough house=lose 4-0. I would rough house and take my chances.

 

[SalvadorMontenegro]

A little late, but here's a fun article from the New York Times (!) about Mario Balotelli:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/s...nd-eccentric-players.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

 

[Indigo3]

Trying to play like Barcelona doesn't exactly make you Barcelona and if the system was so peerless, they'd be in the Champion's League places for 12/13.

No other team can play like Barcalona/Spain however you do seem to be hell bent on trying to pick holes in the way they play either by suggesting you can just kick them off the park OR GO GET THE BALL or comparing a clearly less able team in Swansea that "try" and play in a similar manner by keeping possession (that's not TIKA TAKA btw) and digging up their loss stat and saying the system is at fault.


@ mretzlof...and you'd still lose the majority of games against Barca/Spain but in an aberrant manner. You're forgetting one crucial thing about that final, Holland were extremely fortunate to still have eleven players on the pitch just as Italy were unfortunate to be a man down for most of the second half.

 

[mretzloff]

@ mretzlof...and you'd still lose the majority of games against Barca/Spain but in an aberrant manner. You're forgetting one crucial thing about that final, Holland were extremely fortunate to still have eleven players on the pitch just as Italy were unfortunate to be a man down for most of the second half.

If you want to bring luck into the game, do not forget that Spain got to the finals because of it. A penalty kicks bouncing off of the post and into the goal is not skill, but luck. If we take luck out of the game, The Netherlands would have finished with ten (probably less) men and Spain would not have won the Euro 2012.

EDIT: I am not trying to say that the only reason Spain won was because of luck. They were the best team in the tournament and certainly played that way.

 

[Augustiner]

When Italy wins, we all win.

What? Who in the world thinks this. Speak for yourself on that one.

 

[Kevan]

No other team can play like Barcalona/Spain however you do seem to be hell bent on trying to pick holes in the way they play either by suggesting you can just kick them off the park OR GO GET THE BALL or comparing a clearly less able team in Swansea that "try" and play in a similar manner by keeping possession (that's not TIKA TAKA btw) and digging up their loss stat and saying the system is at fault.

You're misconstruing what I said. If you go back, you'll see that I said that what matters is the players, not necessarily the system. Swansea under Rodgers attempted to play Tiki Taka (you might not think so but Rodgers himself said so and so do dozens of articles over the last few years) and while their first season in the EPL can be considered a success, their loss record is proof that the system needs elite players to work properly and BE an elite system. No system is peerless. Barcelona and Spain are a special case and it doesn't mean that any team that adapts to this system will automatically go on to win 13 out of 16 competitions.

And I stand by my assertion that you can go get the ball and beat a team that plays possession. It works for any sport. Dominating teams thrive on rhythm. Disrupt their rhythm and you can make them become unstuck.

Anyway, before a moderator comes in here and magically decides I'm being "argumentative" I guess I should leave this matter alone.

 

[Don Barbiere]

Bump,

Champions League starts soon, we need B&B Fantasy League V.3 going on soon.