Thiers Issard in the bin

[Dav Cun]

I’m not a professional blade-smith, but I believe that relative to other manufacturers the Thiers Issards takes a lot more time and patience to hone effectively. To reiterate what other members have said, the blade material is very hard, and the correct preparation and setting of the blade bevel is very important. There’s no point using an 3000/5000, then an 8000 Shapton if you haven’t set the edge, you’ll never get there. I suggest you start with a 1000 grit or less and work it up, checking with the eye glass before progressing to the next level. If you normally do 40 rep’s on a 1000 grit stone, double it for the TI, check it on the eye glass, if it’s ok move on the 3000/5000 stone and so on, up to a 10k or 12k natural.
It will take 2 or 3 times as longer to hone, but the blade edge will last much longer, if looked after, than the average run of the mill blade.
Take it out of the bin and give it another try.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Taking my time and constantly checking my work with a loupe has helped me set more even bevels. My earlier bevels were less even and tended to waver, and now my bevels tend to be more even. Obviously, the geometry of the blade contributes to the ease of setting an even bevel. But learning how to check your work and adjust is yet just another skill. If you see your bevel begin to waver, stop and try to figure out why and what adjustment(s) need to be made to set the bevel more evenly. The same principles apply to removing the scratch marks from the previous grit as you move through your progression.

To state the obvious, what you don't want to do is grind the razor on the stone for a while and then look at it and realize that you removed too much metal where you did not want/need to.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

If you do not feel comfortable repairing the heel, send me the razor and I will repair the heel and hone it for you, (with a Jnat edge), just pay the shipping.

I have been straight shaving, honing and restoring razors since 1975. I do and have done all the repair work and honing for TI and Dovo, AOS in Sothern California for over 15 years. I hone every TI and Dovo with tape, -never received a single complaint.

I have been a member here since 2012, but have thousands of post, likes and thanks on other fora.

It is a 5-miunte fix that will leave the razor easy to hone from now on. Once the heel is repaired and the bevel corrected, (frown straightened) you can decide to hone with or without tape. Had you honed with tape, none of the spine damage would have occurred and likely the heel damage also.

You have honed the edge into a frown, look at the above photo ahead of the blue arrow, the heel corner is keeping the edge off the stone. Note how reshaping the heel to the radius of the blue circle removes all that heel damage. The edge will now lay flat on the stone.

Heel correction should be part of every honing. As the blade width narrows with honing, the heel corner moves farther back towards the stabilizer. A few quick strokes with a diamond file or plate will keep the heel in the proper prospective, away from the stabilizer and look better to boot Square heels look clunky and if pointed, will cut you. I correct and reshape 80-90 percent of the razors that come in for honing and repair, for most is just a few maintenance swipes.

The question is, where do you go from here. Again, it’s an easy fix.

PM me to send the razor in for repair.

 

[DrStrange]

First post, long time beneficiary with grateful thanks to all particularly Slash. I’m in Australia.
At age 59, 2 years ago, bought my first SR- Thiers Issard full hollow. Then full set of Shaptons. Then Slash’s pasted balsa. Then learned about hard carbon and the difficulty people had honing TI. It never shaved but being a newbie I presumed it was me.
A year ago acquired a Ralf Aust and can hone it from bevel to baby bottom smooth. But I hung on to the TI, coming back to honing it every 3 months or so, to no avail. The last 3 hour effort was today - Burr method, x strokes you name it . Nuthin’…
I’m sure it’s warped and always has been. I’ve proven I can hone a blade. But I can’t hone this. It’s in the bin and I am now free of wasting my time.
Just had to share how hard it was to give up the challenge- but it was wasting my life.
Thanks to all on this forum from whom I’ve learnt so much.

I have a TI that I bought new.
It is very obviously not straight.
They do exist.

The End

 

[stone and strop]

Easy fix.

You are honing on the tang and stabilizer, (Red Arrow) because the heel corner is too far back, which caused the wonky bevel. The heel half of the edge is not on the stone fully. It is not a warp issue, note the thin bevel in the middle and that the spine wear is the same on both sides. If it was warped the spine and bevel wear would be the opposite on each side.

First correct the heel and move the heel corner ,(Pink Arrow)well forward of the stabilizer, similar to the altered photo with a Blue Circle overlayed on the corner. Note how the heel is now well forward of the stabilizer, (Blue Arrow).

A diamond plate will easily reprofile the heel, use a coin or large washer and a sharpie to mark a new radius so the corner is a ¼ inch forward of the stabilizer, this will keep the whole edge on the stone fully. The steel is thin at the corner and steel will be removed quickly. If you need to remark the radius, WD40 on a paper towel will remove the ink.

Riding on the tang lifts the heel half of the edge off the stone, so you applied more pressure and ground the heel end of the spine excessively, but the heel part of the edge is off the stone. If you do not correct the heel the same thing will happen and the sharp heel will turn in to a heel hook and cut you.

Once the heel is reshaped, put 2 layers of tape on the spine to compensate for the steel that has been ground off, ink and reset the bevel on a 1k. Do not use too much pressure or you will as said flex the blade and lift the edge off the stone. Ink will tell you if you are using too much pressure and lifting the edge off the stone.

Watch your tape and replace if you burn through. Watch your honing stroke to ensure you are not riding on the tang. Your bevel should be ground flat and relatively even, may not be completely even due to uneven grinding of the stone, but the bevels will come together and shave well.


View attachment 1322879

I completely agree!!

 

[Gamma]

Thanks Gamma. I don’t understand your advice re the 1.5k Shap pro being more suitable than the 1k. If I’m having trouble with hard steel why wouldn’t the 1k sharpen more aggressively? I’m still learning all this!

As I mentioned, 1k is too soft, too slow, not enough bite on the steel, plus it doesn't so flat for so long.
The 1.5k is harder, more aggressive, and a much better bevel setting stone.

I've been using the Pro stones for many years, set too many bevels to count. Had the 1k for a while, got rid of it because of the reasons stated earlier. The 1.5k is a side-by-side equal to the Chosera 1k, which used to be my #1 bevel setter.

 

[steveclarkus]

First post, long time beneficiary with grateful thanks to all particularly Slash. I’m in Australia.
At age 59, 2 years ago, bought my first SR- Thiers Issard full hollow. Then full set of Shaptons. Then Slash’s pasted balsa. Then learned about hard carbon and the difficulty people had honing TI. It never shaved but being a newbie I presumed it was me.
A year ago acquired a Ralf Aust and can hone it from bevel to baby bottom smooth. But I hung on to the TI, coming back to honing it every 3 months or so, to no avail. The last 3 hour effort was today - Burr method, x strokes you name it . Nuthin’…
I’m sure it’s warped and always has been. I’ve proven I can hone a blade. But I can’t hone this. It’s in the bin and I am now free of wasting my time.
Just had to share how hard it was to give up the challenge- but it was wasting my life.
Thanks to all on this forum from whom I’ve learnt so much.

I’ve had a similar experience myself. Life is too short.

 

[global_dev]

OP, have you learned the rolling x stroke? This razor would probably benefit from that technique.

 

[Apositive]

As I mentioned, 1k is too soft, too slow, not enough bite on the steel, plus it doesn't so flat for so long.
The 1.5k is harder, more aggressive, and a much better bevel setting stone.

I've been using the Pro stones for many years, set too many bevels to count. Had the 1k for a while, got rid of it because of the reasons stated earlier. The 1.5k is a side-by-side equal to the Chosera 1k, which used to be my #1 bevel setter.

Thanks Gamma. I love an opportunity to buy another stone, so I will get the 1.5k.

 

[Apositive]

If you do not feel comfortable repairing the heel, send me the razor and I will repair the heel and hone it for you, (with a Jnat edge), just pay the shipping.

I have been straight shaving, honing and restoring razors since 1975. I do and have done all the repair work and honing for TI and Dovo, AOS in Sothern California for over 15 years. I hone every TI and Dovo with tape, -never received a single complaint.

I have been a member here since 2012, but have thousands of post, likes and thanks on other fora.

It is a 5-miunte fix that will leave the razor easy to hone from now on. Once the heel is repaired and the bevel corrected, (frown straightened) you can decide to hone with or without tape. Had you honed with tape, none of the spine damage would have occurred and likely the heel damage also.

You have honed the edge into a frown, look at the above photo ahead of the blue arrow, the heel corner is keeping the edge off the stone. Note how reshaping the heel to the radius of the blue circle removes all that heel damage. The edge will now lay flat on the stone.

Heel correction should be part of every honing. As the blade width narrows with honing, the heel corner moves farther back towards the stabilizer. A few quick strokes with a diamond file or plate will keep the heel in the proper prospective, away from the stabilizer and look better to boot Square heels look clunky and if pointed, will cut you. I correct and reshape 80-90 percent of the razors that come in for honing and repair, for most is just a few maintenance swipes.

The question is, where do you go from here. Again, it’s an easy fix.

PM me to send the razor in for repair.

As I said at the start, I'm grateful to everyone on this forum that I've now been reading for nearly 3 years before finally joining. It's meant that I can now get a good shave daily with the Aust and maintain it myself.
I guess learning to hone on the TI was not the best idea, but I've learnt so much from my errors. I bought it before finding out that they can be a bear to hone.
I'm going to take you up on your very kind offer, and will send you the poor thing for the plastic surgery it so badly needs, accepting that it will never be the beauty it was. I'll send you a PM and grateful thanks!

 

[RayClem]

As I said at the start, I'm grateful to everyone on this forum that I've now been reading for nearly 3 years before finally joining. It's meant that I can now get a good shave daily with the Aust and maintain it myself.
I guess learning to hone on the TI was not the best idea, but I've learnt so much from my errors. I bought it before finding out that they can be a bear to hone.
I'm going to take you up on your very kind offer, and will send you the poor thing for the plastic surgery it so badly needs, accepting that it will never be the beauty it was. I'll send you a PM and grateful thanks!

Many times I have suggested to people that they learn to hone on an inexpensive Gold Dollar razor. The stabilizer is often bad and it may require modification, but that can be accomplished easily. The blades are not the best ground, but there is typically plenty of steel to work with and the steel is fairly soft, so it will hone without too much difficulty. The blades are so cheap that if you ruin one or two along the way, it is not a significant financial loss. Once you learn how to hone a Gold Dollar, you will be better prepared to handle more expensive razors like the Thiers Issard.

 

[Legion]

Many times I have suggested to people that they learn to hone on an inexpensive Gold Dollar razor. The stabilizer is often bad and it may require modification, but that can be accomplished easily. The blades are not the best ground, but there is typically plenty of steel to work with and the steel is fairly soft, so it will hone without too much difficulty. The blades are so cheap that if you ruin one or two along the way, it is not a significant financial loss. Once you learn how to hone a Gold Dollar, you will be better prepared to handle more expensive razors like the Thiers Issard.

Yeah… In theory that holds true. But each razor presents its own challenges. For example, you could become adept at dealing with the wonky GD grinds, but that would in no way prepare you for the TI steel. They hone very differently. Very.

Id say buy a bunch of eBay beaters, in various states of disrepair. Then do what’s needed to fix them up and get them working. That’s what I did, and I think it is the quickest and most cost effective way to learn to restore and hone.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I can't disagree with @RayClem, but @Legion makes a good point. Now that I have restored a bunch of razors I have found that each razor presents different problems that over time begin to repeat themselves.

 

[RayClem]

I can't disagree with @RayClem, but @Legion makes a good point. Now that I have restored a bunch of razors I have found that each razor presents different problems that over time begin to repeat themselves.

I never intended to say that Gold Dollar razors are the ultimate challenge in honing. I recommend them for those learning to hone for several reasons.

1. They are cheap. If you damage one beyond repair, just toss it. I would not want to do that with a razor I purchased for $200-300.

2. The steel is relatively soft. Thus, it does not require a lot of effort like a Thiers Issard. That means the novice honer is likely to be successful and not become discoruraged like the OP did with his razor.

3. Once properly honed, the Gold Dollar razors (unlike some other cheap razors) will give a decent shave. Just do not expect them to perform like a well crafted razor.

I know that the GD66 razors are often chosen by those wishing to modify the razors. That is fine. However, A novice to honing would probably be better off with one of the other models.

 

[Apositive]

I never intended to say that Gold Dollar razors are the ultimate challenge in honing. I recommend them for those learning to hone for several reasons.

1. They are cheap. If you damage one beyond repair, just toss it. I would not want to do that with a razor I purchased for $200-300.

2. The steel is relatively soft. Thus, it does not require a lot of effort like a Thiers Issard. That means the novice honer is likely to be successful and not become discoruraged like the OP did with his razor.

3. Once properly honed, the Gold Dollar razors (unlike some other cheap razors) will give a decent shave. Just do not expect them to perform like a well crafted razor.

I know that the GD66 razors are often chosen by those wishing to modify the razors. That is fine. However, A novice to honing would probably be better off with one of the other models.

I suspect you have all discussed the concept of 'shave ready' many times, but I'm still new to the game and as a novice this was my experience.
Nearing 60 years of age, and while my sight and coordination was still up to it, I wanted to learn to straight shave. I did some research, but choice of brands in Australia is limited, and like most consumers I thought you get what you pay for. So I bought a TI, advertised by the major provider in Australia as 'Shave Ready' and just needing 'a good stropping'. Cost about $350 Australian. I had read that some TI's were imperfect, assumed that most weren't otherwise the brand surely couldn't survive, and that by paying top dollar it was likely I would get a good product.
Then as a novice, I assumed my poor shaving experience (hence my ID 'Apositive') was due to poor technique, poor stropping, or both. This continued for months, a time period when many would have given up I imagine.
I then researched more, learned that shave ready rarely means shave ready, and started on the journey with Shapton glass stones, a Naniwa 12000, lapping, pasted balsa etc etc. I've loved the journey because that's my personality type.
However, I can think of few other top end consumer goods that can sell a product advertised as 'ready to use' that is so not ready to use, and not only that, but needs a level of expertise to rectify that few novices will gain. My razor was as ready to use as a Swedish brand of flat pack furniture is 'ready to use' out of the box.
I imagine many partners have gifted an expensive razor to a loved one who is a novice but keen to learn, only to have them both disappointed and the shaving journey quickly doubling back to the Braun, with the assumption being they just didn't learn the right technique.
The only other luxury item I have bought with a similar experience, as mentioned in a prior post, was a Pelikan M1000 fountain pen, which cost $900 Australian, and required me to go down an internet rabbit hole of nib tuning. Again, I persisted, because that's my bent, but most wouldn't, and in my opinion it is disgraceful that manufacturers can get away with this. TI would know their razors aren't shave ready, as would many other makers. But the novice punter, or well meaning partner of same, does not. If you can't shave with it, it has not fulfilled its very reason for purchase.
If I buy a higher end watch, I don't fully anticipate it not to keep time and require me to learn how to adjust the mechanism.
In my opinion, all purveyors should employ a honemeister, explain clearly that shave ready is not shave ready, and offer to make it so. And the manufacturers should drop their prices to allow the price of the post market honing to be factored in to the requirement of getting a usable article. At the moment that cost is moved on to the customer, at least in Australia.
Maybe it's Darwinian, weeding out the non-stayers who are not prepared to spend upward of another $500 on stones etc, and commit months if not years to learning the honing art.
Again, I love this stuff, the pen nibs and the honing, so for me it's not been a hardship. I maintain and drive a 52yo old English Rover car eg.
But I think there should be much more buyer beware information from the sellers, and that the brands like TI should be ashamed that a significant percentage of their high end products are not usable as is.
Thanks for letting me ventilate!

 

[Legion]

I suspect you have all discussed the concept of 'shave ready' many times, but I'm still new to the game and as a novice this was my experience.
Nearing 60 years of age, and while my sight and coordination was still up to it, I wanted to learn to straight shave. I did some research, but choice of brands in Australia is limited, and like most consumers I thought you get what you pay for. So I bought a TI, advertised by the major provider in Australia as 'Shave Ready' and just needing 'a good stropping'. Cost about $350 Australian. I had read that some TI's were imperfect, assumed that most weren't otherwise the brand surely couldn't survive, and that by paying top dollar it was likely I would get a good product.
Then as a novice, I assumed my poor shaving experience (hence my ID 'Apositive') was due to poor technique, poor stropping, or both. This continued for months, a time period when many would have given up I imagine.
I then researched more, learned that shave ready rarely means shave ready, and started on the journey with Shapton glass stones, a Naniwa 12000, lapping, pasted balsa etc etc. I've loved the journey because that's my personality type.
However, I can think of few other top end consumer goods that can sell a product advertised as 'ready to use' that is so not ready to use, and not only that, but needs a level of expertise to rectify that few novices will gain. My razor was as ready to use as a Swedish brand of flat pack furniture is 'ready to use' out of the box.
I imagine many partners have gifted an expensive razor to a loved one who is a novice but keen to learn, only to have them both disappointed and the shaving journey quickly doubling back to the Braun, with the assumption being they just didn't learn the right technique.
The only other luxury item I have bought with a similar experience, as mentioned in a prior post, was a Pelikan M1000 fountain pen, which cost $900 Australian, and required me to go down an internet rabbit hole of nib tuning. Again, I persisted, because that's my bent, but most wouldn't, and in my opinion it is disgraceful that manufacturers can get away with this. TI would know their razors aren't shave ready, as would many other makers. But the novice punter, or well meaning partner of same, does not. If you can't shave with it, it has not fulfilled its very reason for purchase.
If I buy a higher end watch, I don't fully anticipate it not to keep time and require me to learn how to adjust the mechanism.
In my opinion, all purveyors should employ a honemeister, explain clearly that shave ready is not shave ready, and offer to make it so. And the manufacturers should drop their prices to allow the price of the post market honing to be factored in to the requirement of getting a usable article. At the moment that cost is moved on to the customer, at least in Australia.
Maybe it's Darwinian, weeding out the non-stayers who are not prepared to spend upward of another $500 on stones etc, and commit months if not years to learning the honing art.
Again, I love this stuff, the pen nibs and the honing, so for me it's not been a hardship. I maintain and drive a 52yo old English Rover car eg.
But I think there should be much more buyer beware information from the sellers, and that the brands like TI should be ashamed that a significant percentage of their high end products are not usable as is.
Thanks for letting me ventilate!

Agreed. And the other catch 22 is, if you try to make it shave ready, and find you can’t because the blade has issues, then a lot of retailers will not let you return it, as you have voided the warranty by putting it on a hone.

Pretty much the reason our go to answer for “what first razor should I get?” Is, buy a used one honed by an experienced member here.

 

[Straight up]

Apositive, sorry to hear you had so many problems. It isn't just TI that this applies to. Most 'ready to shave' razors aren't unless you buy from a retailer who understands the product;by which I mean uses one regularly.

 

[FarmerTan]

I suspect you have all discussed the concept of 'shave ready' many times, but I'm still new to the game and as a novice this was my experience.
Nearing 60 years of age, and while my sight and coordination was still up to it, I wanted to learn to straight shave. I did some research, but choice of brands in Australia is limited, and like most consumers I thought you get what you pay for. So I bought a TI, advertised by the major provider in Australia as 'Shave Ready' and just needing 'a good stropping'. Cost about $350 Australian. I had read that some TI's were imperfect, assumed that most weren't otherwise the brand surely couldn't survive, and that by paying top dollar it was likely I would get a good product.
Then as a novice, I assumed my poor shaving experience (hence my ID 'Apositive') was due to poor technique, poor stropping, or both. This continued for months, a time period when many would have given up I imagine.
I then researched more, learned that shave ready rarely means shave ready, and started on the journey with Shapton glass stones, a Naniwa 12000, lapping, pasted balsa etc etc. I've loved the journey because that's my personality type.
However, I can think of few other top end consumer goods that can sell a product advertised as 'ready to use' that is so not ready to use, and not only that, but needs a level of expertise to rectify that few novices will gain. My razor was as ready to use as a Swedish brand of flat pack furniture is 'ready to use' out of the box.
I imagine many partners have gifted an expensive razor to a loved one who is a novice but keen to learn, only to have them both disappointed and the shaving journey quickly doubling back to the Braun, with the assumption being they just didn't learn the right technique.
The only other luxury item I have bought with a similar experience, as mentioned in a prior post, was a Pelikan M1000 fountain pen, which cost $900 Australian, and required me to go down an internet rabbit hole of nib tuning. Again, I persisted, because that's my bent, but most wouldn't, and in my opinion it is disgraceful that manufacturers can get away with this. TI would know their razors aren't shave ready, as would many other makers. But the novice punter, or well meaning partner of same, does not. If you can't shave with it, it has not fulfilled its very reason for purchase.
If I buy a higher end watch, I don't fully anticipate it not to keep time and require me to learn how to adjust the mechanism.
In my opinion, all purveyors should employ a honemeister, explain clearly that shave ready is not shave ready, and offer to make it so. And the manufacturers should drop their prices to allow the price of the post market honing to be factored in to the requirement of getting a usable article. At the moment that cost is moved on to the customer, at least in Australia.
Maybe it's Darwinian, weeding out the non-stayers who are not prepared to spend upward of another $500 on stones etc, and commit months if not years to learning the honing art.
Again, I love this stuff, the pen nibs and the honing, so for me it's not been a hardship. I maintain and drive a 52yo old English Rover car eg.
But I think there should be much more buyer beware information from the sellers, and that the brands like TI should be ashamed that a significant percentage of their high end products are not usable as is.
Thanks for letting me ventilate!

Perfectly stated.

 

[mattps1]

I'm fairly new to SR and TI razors, all but one were OK to Excellent from day one, no stropping on the first shave out of box. Only TI have honed my TI blades before me, no dealer has adjusted the blades.

One particular blade that was a challenge at first, not being that sharp, but I was able to improve the edge a bit on stones. That one isn't super flat, and it's best honing (in my lay skillset and equipment) now happens on a narrow leather paddle strop with cheap paste. It feels like a significant amount of effort and laps goes into improving the edge compared to other razors I've used.

I expect all my TI's will now follow the leather honing + paste regime they recommend until I can't keep them sharp, which they claim can be many years (they actually say one dozen years on leather only). They sell these leather paddle strops and chromox products and diamond pastes, but the stone they sell they don't even recommend.

My opinion is that TI's old world methods, romantic historic designs demand an old world skill set, patience and appreciation for potential challenges due to imperfection and uniqueness you get.
The straight razor may seem like a phallic object, but these french beauties are women with their charm, curve and character, and need to be well understood and approached carefully if you want to have a good go with them.

 

[Legion]

I'm fairly new to SR and TI razors, all but one were OK to Excellent from day one, no stropping on the first shave out of box. Only TI have honed my TI blades before me, no dealer has adjusted the blades.

One particular blade that was a challenge at first, not being that sharp, but I was able to improve the edge a bit on stones. That one isn't super flat, and it's best honing (in my lay skillset and equipment) now happens on a narrow leather paddle strop with cheap paste. It feels like a significant amount of effort and laps goes into improving the edge compared to other razors I've used.

I expect all my TI's will now follow the leather honing + paste regime they recommend until I can't keep them sharp, which they claim can be many years (they actually say one dozen years on leather only). They sell these leather paddle strops and chromox products and diamond pastes, but the stone they sell they don't even recommend.

My opinion is that TI's old world methods, romantic historic designs demand an old world skill set, patience and appreciation for potential challenges due to imperfection and uniqueness you get.
The straight razor may seem like a phallic object, but these french beauties are women with their charm, curve and character, and need to be well understood and approached carefully if you want to have a good go with them.

The last TI that I did, the bevel certainly seemed like it was honed on a pasted belt, so it makes sense they don’t recommend their stone. On my stones it took an absolute aged to reset the bevel flat.