I use a well worn out 600 grit DMT card
How do you figure out what JNat to get?
- Thread starter Seraphim
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I use a well worn out 600 grit DMT card
I really prefer the 600. I find the 1200 has issues with sticking to the surface as well as nickel removal from it. Also 600 is where I like the surface of my jnat to be anyways.
I was thinking that since the naguras are used before the finishing stage that they would be faster than a tomo slurry. Is their purpose different than a material removing step between bevel setting and finishing?
Each stage is refining more and more. Like sandpaper if you will. Each step if done correctly is getting you closer, smoother and more refined. If you use a too large slurry, you may end up dulling it. So keep it small at first til you can see them break and get an idea on how they work. You can always refesh or add to the slurry if you need more. It does change it a bit though as the new particles will be coarser than the refined, broken slurry.
You're a good man, Buca. Later, Denny
Gentlemen! Just want you to know I am willing to work this out with you. Just keep asking the questions. No need to go at it alone. Im no honemeister but I know how to use one and want you to hit the ground running. I will not hold back anything that I know. Its not a black art guys, its just honing. I have some free time now so I will get to the posts asap. PM me as well if you want.
Don't listen to Bill. It's a black art that requires magical stones that only a select few of us have been given the ability to use. If you all stop buying stones then the cost will go down for me and I'll be able to secure more rocks
My turn to keep this thread alive with some more beginner Jnat questions.
I have two Jnats that I've tried a bunch of different stuff on over the past couple of months (thick slurry, thin slurry, DMT slurry only, Asano nagura progression, etc.). I've managed some decent edges by copying YouTube videos out there: Doc's, Mainaman's, and Gamma's (thanks for making them, guys!). However, I haven't achieved the mojo-laced edges I've tried from Doc and others yet.
My issue: I really don't know when I've 'broken down' the slurry, and what 'feedback' I'm looking for. Just like there's no way to figure out pressure to use by watching videos, I can't figure out those two concepts either. I know I'm getting close to being in the zone since I'm copying what I see, but obviously, I need to be more attuned to what's happening with each razor and each slurry.
It appears to me that 'broken down' slurry is darker (from swarf, I presume), but what are other indicators? I've heard that it thickens/get sticky, but at the same time, as slurries are getting diluted, they seem LESS viscous to me. And I don't know what 'sticky' slurry is. One of my stones is thirstier than the other, and I could easily get a thicker slurry just from absorption of fluid, so I don't know how to read a broken-down slurry. And I've never detected a change in feeling of graininess with any of my slurries--I can neither see nor feel any grains in the slurry.
And the concept of 'feedback'; what am I looking for? At times I get the blade sticking to the stone, but many times that seems almost a function of razor grind/bevel size; i.e. my razors with no honewear and tiny bevels never seem to 'stick', but wedges certainly do. So in my mind, this isn't the feedback I'm looking for. What AM I looking for?
I appreciate those of you who are putting up with these questions that must be old-hat for you; thank you!
I have two Jnats that I've tried a bunch of different stuff on over the past couple of months (thick slurry, thin slurry, DMT slurry only, Asano nagura progression, etc.). I've managed some decent edges by copying YouTube videos out there: Doc's, Mainaman's, and Gamma's (thanks for making them, guys!). However, I haven't achieved the mojo-laced edges I've tried from Doc and others yet.
My issue: I really don't know when I've 'broken down' the slurry, and what 'feedback' I'm looking for. Just like there's no way to figure out pressure to use by watching videos, I can't figure out those two concepts either. I know I'm getting close to being in the zone since I'm copying what I see, but obviously, I need to be more attuned to what's happening with each razor and each slurry.
It appears to me that 'broken down' slurry is darker (from swarf, I presume), but what are other indicators? I've heard that it thickens/get sticky, but at the same time, as slurries are getting diluted, they seem LESS viscous to me. And I don't know what 'sticky' slurry is. One of my stones is thirstier than the other, and I could easily get a thicker slurry just from absorption of fluid, so I don't know how to read a broken-down slurry. And I've never detected a change in feeling of graininess with any of my slurries--I can neither see nor feel any grains in the slurry.
And the concept of 'feedback'; what am I looking for? At times I get the blade sticking to the stone, but many times that seems almost a function of razor grind/bevel size; i.e. my razors with no honewear and tiny bevels never seem to 'stick', but wedges certainly do. So in my mind, this isn't the feedback I'm looking for. What AM I looking for?
I appreciate those of you who are putting up with these questions that must be old-hat for you; thank you!
Remove any variables, use 1 stone, one progression dia slurry or naguras and one grind of blade, even if its the same blade. Keep your slurries small and dont have puddles of water on the stone. Keep the slurries on the stone.
Try and repeat the hone that got you your best edge and try it. You sound like you are getting close. Describe what your typical progression is.If you dont have one, then pick one and stick with one method until you get good results consistently. If you remember your best hone and how you got there tell us about it.
Try and repeat the hone that got you your best edge and try it. You sound like you are getting close. Describe what your typical progression is.If you dont have one, then pick one and stick with one method until you get good results consistently. If you remember your best hone and how you got there tell us about it.
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I've progressively eliminated variables over time as I've gotten better results, but I think I'm stalling now: I'm now down to doing all test honing on a full-hollow Henckels (no warping or other bad stuff), I'm using a full Asano nagura progression (I'll detail in a second), and I'm now using 'small' slurries after being recommended to do so. Since I get decent-enough edges at this point, I do bounce between my two Jnats, seeing if one breaks ahead of the other and gets me a 'great' edge. Maybe I should put one away until I get what I want out of one of them first.
My typical progression/process: After initially setting the bevel on a Chosera 1K, I wet surface of the Jnat, rub Botan nagura over surface until light milky slurry develops and then hone. I usually do a series of circles on one side of the blade down the hone about 3 times, flip the razor and do the same, and then maybe 10-20 x-strokes. Moderate pressure the whole time. I do see the slurry darken, but I'm not observing anything else special about the slurry. I'll then rinse off the blade (=diluted slurry), and then do the same set of circles/x-strokes. Two more rinses of the blade, finishing on a very light Botan slurry. Then I wash off the stone and razor, and do the same thing (3 dilutions) for each of the naguras in progression: Tenjyou, Mejiro, Koma, and tomo. I use progressively less pressure with each nagura.
I know I'm getting close, but as you can see, I've locked myself into repeatable numbers since I don't know what I'm looking for that would either make me move to the next step of the progression sooner, or stay longer at a given step. Since I am getting decent shaves, I'm wondering if I'm wringing out of my rocks the best they can give, and the edges I'm getting from the gurus are off of better rocks.
I do want to say that my first attempts at razor honing were with a coticule, and I never got a keen enough edge. Next attempts were with Jnats--other than bevel-setting, I never did the synthetic thing, FWIW.
My typical progression/process: After initially setting the bevel on a Chosera 1K, I wet surface of the Jnat, rub Botan nagura over surface until light milky slurry develops and then hone. I usually do a series of circles on one side of the blade down the hone about 3 times, flip the razor and do the same, and then maybe 10-20 x-strokes. Moderate pressure the whole time. I do see the slurry darken, but I'm not observing anything else special about the slurry. I'll then rinse off the blade (=diluted slurry), and then do the same set of circles/x-strokes. Two more rinses of the blade, finishing on a very light Botan slurry. Then I wash off the stone and razor, and do the same thing (3 dilutions) for each of the naguras in progression: Tenjyou, Mejiro, Koma, and tomo. I use progressively less pressure with each nagura.
I know I'm getting close, but as you can see, I've locked myself into repeatable numbers since I don't know what I'm looking for that would either make me move to the next step of the progression sooner, or stay longer at a given step. Since I am getting decent shaves, I'm wondering if I'm wringing out of my rocks the best they can give, and the edges I'm getting from the gurus are off of better rocks.
I do want to say that my first attempts at razor honing were with a coticule, and I never got a keen enough edge. Next attempts were with Jnats--other than bevel-setting, I never did the synthetic thing, FWIW.
Your progression sounds good. Look at the blade with a loupe before and after your tomo. You should see some polishing going on. Try another tomo slurry and see. If you have more tomos by all means try them. If that doesnt do it i would do 2 mejiro and koma slurries. These are polishing stages so they will definitely not hurt your edge and will almost definitely refine the edge further. Really thin slurry at the end of the tomos really helps. Rinse the stone like 3/4 of the way and finish on that tiny slurry thats left. The feedback is there, you may not have noticed it yet. But you will.
edit: Use uniform pressure on all your naguras and save the light strokes for your x strokes at the end of each progression. very light pressure may not be working the slurry completely.
edit: Use uniform pressure on all your naguras and save the light strokes for your x strokes at the end of each progression. very light pressure may not be working the slurry completely.
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Thanks for the tips; I'll try them out this weekend and report back. I really appreciate the help.
I haven't read through all the posts(sorry) but it might be good to mention that some stones don't do well on very thin/diluted slurry, or water only. My stone does very well with tomo slurry, and I keep going up and down the stone adding water as it thickens but not enough to dilute it. Eventually the slurry turns black with swarf, and depending on my mood I may make up some more slurry and do it again. Doing conventional laps with water only do nothing but dull my edges. YMMV of course.
My edges also improve a round of stropping.
My edges also improve a round of stropping.
Water only isnt recommended at this point. It MAY work to further refine the edge but I wouldnt attempt it at this point until you maxed out the slurry. And if there is little improvement it may be the tomo isnt a good match. If polishing doesnt improve with a few tomos, I would look for some new ones to try.
I did notice a great disturbance in the force and wondered what it might be. Funny thing but at the exact same time, I had a mental image of the old man talking to Harrison Ford, played by Seraphim, saying something like 'You've never had a stone in your hand before, have you? And Harrison Ford answers 'Well never one this NICE!' at which point the old man laughs hysterically.
Watch yourself there Seraphim, you are wading in dangerous waters. Sure those sirens may have a nice song, and maybe even a great dance but can't you see how ugly they are? They promise the world and the starts but the reality will be more like a post-dated cheque on a bank that was failing. C'mon, these guys can't even decide which rock they want to use to rub against the other rock before failing to put a decent edge on a razor!
Caveat Emptor.... even if you are just borrowing the rock.
Brian
Watch yourself there Seraphim, you are wading in dangerous waters. Sure those sirens may have a nice song, and maybe even a great dance but can't you see how ugly they are? They promise the world and the starts but the reality will be more like a post-dated cheque on a bank that was failing. C'mon, these guys can't even decide which rock they want to use to rub against the other rock before failing to put a decent edge on a razor!
Caveat Emptor.... even if you are just borrowing the rock.
Brian
My loaner stone (and nagura) from Buca arrived last night. I didn't get more than a quick look at it (busy with two young kids, bedtime, etc, etc..).
I whipped it out of the box, and unwrapped it for a quick peek. My reaction was not what I had expected.
Here is the unboxing video my wife took of me coming into first contact with a JNat actually held in my hand.
My first impression was actually rather surprising.
My cold, hard, synthetic, lapping film heart was actually quite taken with the pleasant heft of the stone in hand, and the beautiful wavy surface patterning did emit a subtle siren call (it actually sounded alot like the sound of cash leaving my bank account...).
No, I must be strong and heed not the screeching harpies luring me to my doom upon JNat island! Lash me to the mast, boys!
I don't know about the edges having mojo, but the stone itself, I have to admit, does indeed have its' groove on.
But, I'm a practical man when you come right down to it, and a skinflint to boot, so all this beauty and majesty don't mean squat if this thing can't deliver the goods.
I'll have to see if I can squeeze in some honing time over the next couple of days and see if I can't get an edge off this thang.
Thanks, Buca!
For the record, could you tell us a bit more about this stone? I'll post some pics when I get the chance.
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ROFL, amazing.
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