Good wines to cellar?

[Bhugo]

Hi folks,

I have been stocking up on some Port to hold and enjoy over my remaining years. My son will inherit whatever I cannot finish. That may not be much!....

I enjoy wine as well, but I have never really looked in to aging them. I don’t even really understand how they will change for the better.... Since I have started down that road with port, I figured I’d grab some wine as well. This would be purely for my wife and my enjoyment and not for an investment. My wife drinks much more wine than I. I would probably aim more towards her taste as I am really not fussy. She definitely dislikes most dry wines. She will tolerate middle of the road.

Her favorite is Pinot Noir and I like it as well. I know it ages well from the internet searches, but do all Pinot Noir age well? How do you know?

Her other favorites are Gamay,Moscato,Gewurztraminer, and Riesling. She likes fruity flavors in wines and dislikes honey. If she thinks she tastes honey, she won’t drink it. She does not like Chardonnay if that helps. I like whichever bottle is open really. I enjoy dryer reds as well. Merlot is my go to for steak dinner. As you can probably tell, we have never been connoisseurs of fine wines.

Can any of you guys that cellar wine clue me in on which types of wines I might get based on the above information? I am under the assumption that most wines are good to drink fresh, but some get “better” with age. I’d get a bottle and see if we enjoyed it. If so, buy a case.... I have room for a few cases. I am looking for affordable wines that will age well. 15-30$ per bottle is the range I’m thinking if possible. Maybe more if there is a reason....

If you could, when you mention the type, let me know if there is a certain region or such that I should be looking for? How long they can age and such. I’d hate to get a bottle and over age it or get one that will not get better with age and have it take up space in my small cellar.

If I am way off base on any of this, let me know.

Best wishes

 

[The Count]

Some random thoughts on this ....

Vintage Port ages well because of the high alcohol content and the high levels of tannin. For red wines to age well (i.e., at least 10 years), you generally need to have both, which is most often found in Cabernet Sauvignon-based wines. Pinot Noir, in contrast, is usually less alcoholic and less tannic, so I would hesitate to hold onto one for more than 10 years. A possible exception might be a very high quality red Burgundy (which will be a Pinot Noir), but you are unlikely to find one for less than $50/bottle.

The "gold standard" for aging is red Bordeaux, which are normally blends of Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, and Cabernet Franc. The higher the percentage of Cabernet Sauvignon, the more likely the wine will last (and improve) for years. Prices can be off the charts for the top names (well north of $100/bottle), but very good -- and age worthy -- red Bordeaux can be found in the $30-$40/bottle range. California Cabernet Sauvignons can also be age-worthy, but they will also be very expensive.

One of the challenges with choosing red wines for aging is that, because of the high tannins, they will probably not be very appealing when young. You will be well-served by getting familiar with wine writers who make their living identifying young reds with great aging potential, and sample some of their recommendations.

I don't have much experience aging white wines. I have read that good Alsatian whites (particularly Riesling and Gewurztraminer) can age very well, although I have also read that aged Alsatian whites tend to develop honey-like flavors. If fruit is what you want, drink'em young.

Happy drinking!

 

[Bhugo]

Thank you very much for your response. I appreciate it.

Some random thoughts on this ....

Vintage Port ages well because of the high alcohol content and the high levels of tannin. For red wines to age well (i.e., at least 10 years), you generally need to have both, which is most often found in Cabernet Sauvignon-based wines. Pinot Noir, in contrast, is usually less alcoholic and less tannic, so I would hesitate to hold onto one for more than 10 years. A possible exception might be a very high quality red Burgundy (which will be a Pinot Noir), but you are unlikely to find one for less than $50/bottle.

The "gold standard" for aging is red Bordeaux, which are normally blends of Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, and Cabernet Franc. The higher the percentage of Cabernet Sauvignon, the more likely the wine will last (and improve) for years. Prices can be off the charts for the top names (well north of $100/bottle), but very good -- and age worthy -- red Bordeaux can be found in the $30-$40/bottle range. California Cabernet Sauvignons can also be age-worthy, but they will also be very expensive.

One of the challenges with choosing red wines for aging is that, because of the high tannins, they will probably not be very appealing when young. You will be well-served by getting familiar with wine writers who make their living identifying young reds with great aging potential, and sample some of their recommendations.

I don't have much experience aging white wines. I have read that good Alsatian whites (particularly Riesling and Gewurztraminer) can age very well, although I have also read that aged Alsatian whites tend to develop honey-like flavors. If fruit is what you want, drink'em young.

Happy drinking!

 

[SharpieB]

Good German Riesling (Auslese, TBA, BA) can age for many decades. Not sure about the honey notes but definitely gets a petrol/gasoline scent with age. It is the only white I have a bunch of in the cellar. They can be very inexpensive with top Kabinetts being under $20 on release.

My favourite reds to cellar are good Cab based Bordeaux, top Burgundies (Pinot) and Chateauneuf du Pape. Bordeaux is getting expensive but good 3-5th growths from good years are still fairly reasonable. Top Burgs are insanely priced and I no longer buy them. Chateau du Beaucastel is by far my favourite CdP and I don’t even touch it for 20 years. Still can be found for $50-70 a bottle on release.

Italian Brunello, Barbaresco and Super Tuscans are also great for aging as are top Champagnes.

Vintage Ports obviously, but I like mine 40+ years old. Kinda painful to buy a bottle to cellar for decades. A good 10 or 20 year old tawny port can be just as good.

I greatly prefer fairly young California Cab and Pinot but many like older Napa Cabs. I find Cali Cabs lose a lot of their fruit with long term cellaring.

Sauternes can cellar for centuries in many cases as can Tokaji. Lots of honey there though.

The above makes up most of my cellar.

Nothing wrong with going to the liquor store and picking up a good 315-30 Aussie Shiraz, Cali Cab, Zin or Pinot, Spanish Rioja, etc. to drink immediately. I do that a lot.

 

[TexLaw]

@The Count gave you excellent advice, although I must say that Pinot Noirs (especially older vine red Burgundies) can age very well. They may not age for 30-40+ years like some Bordeauxs or Barolos, but 10-15 years is far from unheard of.

Unfortunately, as he pointed out, you really don't find much in your price range that ages well for very long, at least not from France or the USA. There just isn't enough of that sort of wine produced, and it's highly sought after. However, you might very well find some good Chianti Classico Riserva, Brunello, Barolo, or Spanish Gran Reserva examples that come in or near your range. Get out of France and USA, and value can start shooting up in a hurry.

Good "non-French" and "non-Napa" grapes to look for are Sangiovese, Nebbiolo, Tempranillo, Malbec, and Aglianico. That last one might be a little tricky to find, but the others shouldn't be. Keep in mind that there are many factors other than grape that makes a wine good for aging, but you gotta have the grape.

That said, just about any red wine that has a cork in the bottle can benefit from lying down for a few years and maybe even 6 or 7. Of course, the flip side of that is that most red wine will peak after a few years or sooner.

Now, here's the thing. Unless you are just talking about a year or two, you have to age them properly. Temperature should be around 55 F and essentially constant. You are pretty much fine between 50 F and 60 F, but things can start going downhill rapidly outside that, and you dint want large or rapid fluctuations. You can't just stick them in your closet or pantry or fridge. None of those are good options (unless you keep your home at a constant temperature between 50 and 60 F). The closet, pantry, or other cool place with steady temperature is okay for a year or maybe two, but never the fridge. If you have a real cellar, you might be in good shape. Otherwise, you need some temperature controlled space. If you're looking to age for years and years or you live in a dry climate, humidity also matters. Otherwise, the cork can mildew or dry out--bad news if that happens.

 

[Doc4]

I have been stocking up on some Port to hold and enjoy over my remaining years.

Good!

My standard recommendation is to get LBV (late bottled vintage) port ... almost as good, much less expensive, and responds far sooner to good cellaring.

Her favorite is Pinot Noir and I like it as well. I know it ages well from the internet searches, but do all Pinot Noir age well?

Hmm ... "the heartbreak grape", so called because far too often it is almost good but not quite ... but when it really hits the mark it's fantastic.

Most PN is going to be made to be drunk relatively early. (Most wines in general, in fact. Most wines that could be made for ageing, are made to avoid the need for ageing ... a world of people who want to buy a bottle and drink it tonight ... who don't have a basement to cellar wines in ... well, why do they want to try to store 100 bottles for a decade?)

Red Burgundy (the real stuff from France) is PN ... and freakishly good and freakishly expensive. This stuff will be age-worthy, but ... which ones and for how long ... you need better advice than this forum can give you. Other PNs will benefit from a year or two ... but with a few exceptions they are not for a decade or two of age.

Her other favorites are Gamay,Moscato,Gewurztraminer, and Riesling.

Riesling (and Gew.) if made well can age very well. Riesling is actually one of the four "noble grapes" (chardonnay, pinot noir, and cab-sauv being the other three) noted a long time ago for their ageworthiness.)

IIRC, a well-aged reisling develops what are called "petrol notes" as the fruitiness fades. SWMBO may prefer the young stuff.

She does not like Chardonnay if that helps.

A lot of chardonnay is made in a certain "california" style ... heavy on the oak, and so heavy on the vanilla. An un-oaked chardonnay can be a totally different thing ... like comparing a pumpkin-spice latte at Starbucks to a real cup of good coffee.

So maybe she likes chardonnay ... she's just never tried it.

Merlot is my go to for steak dinner. As you can probably tell, we have never been connoisseurs of fine wines.

I am under the assumption that most wines are good to drink fresh, but some get “better” with age.

Most wines that are good to drink young will not age well. Most wines that age well do not drink well young. There are exceptions (mostly white) but ... usually an age-worthy wine is unrewarding if drunk too young. (Esp with the reds, where the tannins haven't sorted themselves out and it's like drinking tea that's been brewed way too long ... wince!)

I have room for a few cases. I am looking for affordable wines that will age well. 15-30$ per bottle is the range I’m thinking if possible.

Okay ... most wines that are ageworthy are of a quality level that commands a certain price level ... above what you want to spend. And yes, there are exceptions. (Some expensive wines are not made for age ... some cheaper wines are good to age.)

Most inexpensive wines are not for ageing. Some could have been made that way, but are made for drinking now/soon; others were never capable of being made to age ... just like a good cheddar can age for years, but a jug of milk is done in a couple weeks.

All that being said, just about any wine will benefit from 6-12 months of cellar age. (Seriously.)

So here's what I would suggest you do:

1. Based on your consumption rates, figure out how many bottles you need for a year.
2. Buy that many bottles of whatever you like and drink most ... bottles you have enjoyed in the past, ones you have heard good things about, ones you have seen and want to try. Rather than one of each, get multiples so you can come back to the "same" wine after a few months and see how it's doing with more age.
3. Now you have a year's worth of drinking. Treat it like a conveyor belt ... a new bottle goes in for every bottle that comes out ... and it comes in at the back-end so it has a year to rest and improve. (Different ways to set up a system for stock rotation here, but don't make it too complicated. It can be as simple as having 4 bins: drink everything in bin 1, then move on to bin 2 and refill bin 1; when bin 2 is empty start drinking from bin 3 and refill bin 2, and so forth.)
4. Then ... you start working on "Part B" of the wine cellar ... longer-term ageing wines. (You already have one of these for port ... now do one for table wines.) These are wines that are maybe a bit pricier (or not) and will need and/or benefit from any number of years in the cellar. I will throw out one suggestion here: Douro Valley. That's in Portugal ... and it's where port comes from. Nowadays, they make dry reds too ... and the better ones can be really good for ageing. Here, unlike the bins mentioned above, you may want to get anal and keep a log of what wines you have and what you anticipate being their "best to drink" dates (this info is often offered by the vintner, reviewers, or wine merchant.) That helps avoid having a bottle hide in the back for a decade too long.

 

[Bhugo]

Good!

My standard recommendation is to get LBV (late bottled vintage) port ... almost as good, much less expensive, and responds far sooner to good cellaring.



Hmm ... "the heartbreak grape", so called because far too often it is almost good but not quite ... but when it really hits the mark it's fantastic.

Most PN is going to be made to be drunk relatively early. (Most wines in general, in fact. Most wines that could be made for ageing, are made to avoid the need for ageing ... a world of people who want to buy a bottle and drink it tonight ... who don't have a basement to cellar wines in ... well, why do they want to try to store 100 bottles for a decade?)

Red Burgundy (the real stuff from France) is PN ... and freakishly good and freakishly expensive. This stuff will be age-worthy, but ... which ones and for how long ... you need better advice than this forum can give you. Other PNs will benefit from a year or two ... but with a few exceptions they are not for a decade or two of age.



Riesling (and Gew.) if made well can age very well. Riesling is actually one of the four "noble grapes" (chardonnay, pinot noir, and cab-sauv being the other three) noted a long time ago for their ageworthiness.)

IIRC, a well-aged reisling develops what are called "petrol notes" as the fruitiness fades. SWMBO may prefer the young stuff.



A lot of chardonnay is made in a certain "california" style ... heavy on the oak, and so heavy on the vanilla. An un-oaked chardonnay can be a totally different thing ... like comparing a pumpkin-spice latte at Starbucks to a real cup of good coffee.

So maybe she likes chardonnay ... she's just never tried it.



View attachment 1252864



Most wines that are good to drink young will not age well. Most wines that age well do not drink well young. There are exceptions (mostly white) but ... usually an age-worthy wine is unrewarding if drunk too young. (Esp with the reds, where the tannins haven't sorted themselves out and it's like drinking tea that's been brewed way too long ... wince!)



Okay ... most wines that are ageworthy are of a quality level that commands a certain price level ... above what you want to spend. And yes, there are exceptions. (Some expensive wines are not made for age ... some cheaper wines are good to age.)

Most inexpensive wines are not for ageing. Some could have been made that way, but are made for drinking now/soon; others were never capable of being made to age ... just like a good cheddar can age for years, but a jug of milk is done in a couple weeks.

All that being said, just about any wine will benefit from 6-12 months of cellar age. (Seriously.)

So here's what I would suggest you do:

1. Based on your consumption rates, figure out how many bottles you need for a year.
2. Buy that many bottles of whatever you like and drink most ... bottles you have enjoyed in the past, ones you have heard good things about, ones you have seen and want to try. Rather than one of each, get multiples so you can come back to the "same" wine after a few months and see how it's doing with more age.
3. Now you have a year's worth of drinking. Treat it like a conveyor belt ... a new bottle goes in for every bottle that comes out ... and it comes in at the back-end so it has a year to rest and improve. (Different ways to set up a system for stock rotation here, but don't make it too complicated. It can be as simple as having 4 bins: drink everything in bin 1, then move on to bin 2 and refill bin 1; when bin 2 is empty start drinking from bin 3 and refill bin 2, and so forth.)
4. Then ... you start working on "Part B" of the wine cellar ... longer-term ageing wines. (You already have one of these for port ... now do one for table wines.) These are wines that are maybe a bit pricier (or not) and will need and/or benefit from any number of years in the cellar. I will throw out one suggestion here: Douro Valley. That's in Portugal ... and it's where port comes from. Nowadays, they make dry reds too ... and the better ones can be really good for ageing. Here, unlike the bins mentioned above, you may want to get anal and keep a log of what wines you have and what you anticipate being their "best to drink" dates (this info is often offered by the vintner, reviewers, or wine merchant.) That helps avoid having a bottle hide in the back for a decade too long.

Thank you very much for answering all my questions. Very informative.

 

[Bhugo]

Good German Riesling (Auslese, TBA, BA) can age for many decades. Not sure about the honey notes but definitely gets a petrol/gasoline scent with age. It is the only white I have a bunch of in the cellar. They can be very inexpensive with top Kabinetts being under $20 on release.

My favourite reds to cellar are good Cab based Bordeaux, top Burgundies (Pinot) and Chateauneuf du Pape. Bordeaux is getting expensive but good 3-5th growths from good years are still fairly reasonable. Top Burgs are insanely priced and I no longer buy them. Chateau du Beaucastel is by far my favourite CdP and I don’t even touch it for 20 years. Still can be found for $50-70 a bottle on release.

Italian Brunello, Barbaresco and Super Tuscans are also great for aging as are top Champagnes.

Vintage Ports obviously, but I like mine 40+ years old. Kinda painful to buy a bottle to cellar for decades. A good 10 or 20 year old tawny port can be just as good.

I greatly prefer fairly young California Cab and Pinot but many like older Napa Cabs. I find Cali Cabs lose a lot of their fruit with long term cellaring.

Sauternes can cellar for centuries in many cases as can Tokaji. Lots of honey there though.

The above makes up most of my cellar.

Nothing wrong with going to the liquor store and picking up a good 315-30 Aussie Shiraz, Cali Cab, Zin or Pinot, Spanish Rioja, etc. to drink immediately. I do that a lot.

Thanks so much. Great advice.

 

[Bhugo]

@The Count gave you excellent advice, although I must say that Pinot Noirs (especially older vine red Burgundies) can age very well. They may not age for 30-40+ years like some Bordeauxs or Barolos, but 10-15 years is far from unheard of.

Unfortunately, as he pointed out, you really don't find much in your price range that ages well for very long, at least not from France or the USA. There just isn't enough of that sort of wine produced, and it's highly sought after. However, you might very well find some good Chianti Classico Riserva, Brunello, Barolo, or Spanish Gran Reserva examples that come in or near your range. Get out of France and USA, and value can start shooting up in a hurry.

Good "non-French" and "non-Napa" grapes to look for are Sangiovese, Nebbiolo, Tempranillo, Malbec, and Aglianico. That last one might be a little tricky to find, but the others shouldn't be. Keep in mind that there are many factors other than grape that makes a wine good for aging, but you gotta have the grape.

That said, just about any red wine that has a cork in the bottle can benefit from lying down for a few years and maybe even 6 or 7. Of course, the flip side of that is that most red wine will peak after a few years or sooner.

Now, here's the thing. Unless you are just talking about a year or two, you have to age them properly. Temperature should be around 55 F and essentially constant. You are pretty much fine between 50 F and 60 F, but things can start going downhill rapidly outside that, and you dint want large or rapid fluctuations. You can't just stick them in your closet or pantry or fridge. None of those are good options (unless you keep your home at a constant temperature between 50 and 60 F). The closet, pantry, or other cool place with steady temperature is okay for a year or maybe two, but never the fridge. If you have a real cellar, you might be in good shape. Otherwise, you need some temperature controlled space. If you're looking to age for years and years or you live in a dry climate, humidity also matters. Otherwise, the cork can mildew or dry out--bad news if that happens.

Thanks. I’ll look for some you mentioned.

I have 2 places I’m planning on keeping wine. One is an unheated corner of my basement. It is probably low 60’s to high 50’s. The other is a crawl space under the family cabin. It stays quite cold there. In the winter, it doesn’t freeze but stays in the 40’s. In the summertime at ground level it is about 60 give or take a couple degrees. I checked it last summer. There is no fast temperature swings and the temperature never gets warm. I think that is where I’ll store wines and unfiltered lbv port for longer periods. I was talking to someone who has a cellar and I gathered that colder temperatures aren’t perfect but aren’t damaging like higher temperatures as long as the wine does not freeze. Not sure if he’s right...

 

[Doc4]

I was talking to someone who has a cellar and I gathered that colder temperatures aren’t perfect but aren’t damaging like higher temperatures as long as the wine does not freeze. Not sure if he’s right...

I think so ... perhaps the lower temperatures make the wine age slower.

The things to avoid are temperature fluctuations ... and vibrations.

 

[The Count]

Lots of excellent advice. I appreciate the folks who expanded upon my random thoughts. The comment about California Chardonnay is especially helpful. Most that I have had are insanely heavy and oaky. French Chardonnay, to include simple white burgundies that can be found for under $30/bottle, can be entirely different. As one wine maker in Europe once told me, "I'm in the grape business, not the lumber business."

 

[ouch]

 

[Toothpick]

There’s A place nearby that has a ”wine cellar”, which is just a room he’s set up to hold the aged and more expensive wines. He says to keep it like cave conditions. Cool, dark, and humid. So mid 50’s in temp and around 60% humidity. I try to keep about 12-15 bottles on hand of mixed whites and reds. I’m not aging them or anything so that’s just enough for me to drink throughout the year and replace as I drink.

I’ve got some 10 & 20 year old Tawny Port that is ready to drink now but I suspect I’ll hang on to until a “special occasion” arises. Or until I just get the itch.

 

[Bhugo]

View attachment 1258248View attachment 1258249View attachment 1258250View attachment 1258251

Spectacular!! Thanks for posting the pics.

 

[Doc4]

Spectacular!! Thanks for posting the pics.

... and as soon as I can make it to @ouch's house, we're drinking them all.

 

[Bhugo]

Well, I picked up an order from Wine.com. It was really easy. I had it shipped to a nearby Walgreens. They are a FedEx pickup. The order contains some tawny ports for special occasions as well as some unfiltered lbv to age in a cellar.

It also contains some wines that will be fine to age for some time. The wife and I will try them. I even spoke to a couple of the wineries in Oregon during my research. They were adamant that the PN that I bought would age well for years if I so wished to hold them. I am really looking to stock for a year or so at this point with wine. I just want to find a few favorites. The wine.com folks are helpful. They are helping me select a few wines to hold for a few years for the next order. I am thoroughly impressed so far with them..

 

[Hachet]

I wouldn't sell her any wine. I'd pour her a complimentary glass if I's you.

 

[Bhugo]

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If you have a minute. I would love to hear about a couple of these bottles. The port I am familiar with. The wine I am not.

 

[Toothpick]

I’ve got the Graham’s 20 year tawny and Dow’s 20 year tawny. I’m looking forward to those one of these days.

 

[Bhugo]

There’s A place nearby that has a ”wine cellar”, which is just a room he’s set up to hold the aged and more expensive wines. He says to keep it like cave conditions. Cool, dark, and humid. So mid 50’s in temp and around 60% humidity. I try to keep about 12-15 bottles on hand of mixed whites and reds. I’m not aging them or anything so that’s just enough for me to drink throughout the year and replace as I drink.

I’ve got some 10 & 20 year old Tawny Port that is ready to drink now but I suspect I’ll hang on to until a “special occasion” arises. Or until I just get the itch.

Same here with the port. My dad and brother both enjoy it so we go through some whenever we get together at our camp up north. I guess that’s as special of an occasion as I need, lol.

I am also looking for a few bottles to keep on hand for the year as well. I kinda want to get a dozen or so bottles of a nice wine and see how it changes by drinking one or two bottles a year.

I’ll eventually get some wine that requires aging and keep it in our cellar up north. I’m still looking into this…..not educated enough yet.