Frictionite 00 Advice?

[Beadog]

I stopped by the local Flea market today, and found a totally gunked up old stone.

I brought it home and sprayed it down with oven cleaner for a few minutes, then rinsed. Here is what I uncovered.

It has a couple of tiny nicks on the edges of the "fine" side, but otherwise it seems perfectly OK. I am wanting to get into honing, so it might be a good addition.

I live 15 miles from Dan's Whetstone Company, so picking up a new Arkansas stone or two would be an easy task. I already have a 15 year old 2X6 Smiths Arkansas (unsure of type, but I suspect it is toward the softer end of the range of stones cut around here), and a small, 1X4 Dan's Translucent.

I'm curious about what else I might add to these three stones/hones to start honing practice, and what progression should I use?

Also attached is a poor photo of the three stones together.

 

[Gamma]

Try working with what you have before buying anything else.
Only way to know what you'll need is by knowing what you can do with those stones.
The 00 isn't really a finisher, it's a touch-up stone. Nice piece, but very fast and aggressive.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I'd sell the Frictionite and buy a full honing set or a really nice coticule with the proceeds, but that's just me. I wasn't overly impressed with the Frictionite. Even the best vintage barbers synth doesn't perform as well as modern synths, and the Frictionite barely makes my top ten for barbers synths.

They are FREAKISHLY hard, but not much else.

 

[oakeshott]

I'd sell the Frictionite and buy a full honing set or a really nice coticule with the proceeds, but that's just me. I wasn't overly impressed with the Frictionite. Even the best vintage barbers synth doesn't perform as well as modern synths, and the Frictionite barely makes my top ten for barbers synths.

They are FREAKISHLY hard, but not much else.

+1.

I think if you want to put the time into learning how to get the most out of a barber's hone, then you've got the beginnings of great collection from which to learn. Some people do this and it's perfectly reasonable. If what you want are super smooth edges, then there are lots of better choices and in that case you've got the beginnings of a big downpayment on something else.

 

[Beadog]

Thanks for the replies, fellows. I hadn't yet considered the possibility of selling or trading the old Frictionite. Perhaps I should think about doing that. Maybe I should get a "system" of the same brand and stone type, and learn how to use that, instead of mixing and matching several different types of natural and synthetic stones/hones. Thoughts??

 

[kn4wd]

take gamma;s advice, learn on what you have add what you need. I use a coti and just starting to get success on it, I have used a black arkie and a jnat to finish on. if you don't enjoy honing then the sb or translucent black arkie is better left alone as it takes many many strokes to finish. the plus is not being able to overhone on one.i personally don't think your arm would last long enough to overhone on a sb or translucent.

 

[Gamma]

I've not seen or tried but 1-2 b-hones equal to the 00.
The Norton is on my hit list but not at the going price.
When lapped, polished, conditioned and broken in the 00 are real fine touch up stones.
I spent a couple months conditioning mine- and technoque is key too.
But they are what they are and they are not finish stones. Way too fast for that.
You'd be hard pressed to find a 'better' b-hone, although you may like edges from another b-bone more.
I like mine, I wont sell it. I had two and I sold the other one. Like Ian said, you could flip it and put the profit into a hone set.
Id hold onto it or at least get it serviceable and try it several times before selling.

 

[Beadog]

Gamma, what did you do to condition your Frictionite? Did you just lap it with wet-dry 320 grit until smooth? I have read some guys saying don't lap the 00's. Seems to me that it couldn't hurt, though. The "coarse" side of the Frictionite seems awful coarse for just a "touch-up" stone, but I have a lot to learn!

 

[SliceOfLife]

I've not seen or tried but 1-2 b-hones equal to the 00.
The Norton is on my hit list but not at the going price.

Nortons are maybe a little better. I've found about half the swaty-like stones to be equal to the fine side of the 00, with the other half being (I suspect) mostly victims of binder breakdown to various levels or whatever causes Barber hones to turn into ridiculously awful coarse things. The german dry hones (the 5-8" long ones that are like 20mm wide) are as good or better, I've recently got a couple very small red ones that remind me a bit (by looks) of that fernsler (?) ruby hone which are better, and the Brazilian quartz hone (the one with the coti rubbing stone) absolutely blows all of them away. It's damn near on par with modern stones in all regards but particle size. If someone was dead set on using a barber hone, I'd say track one of those down. They're actually pretty good.

 

[Gamma]

I have 6-7 Swatys - none are even close to the 00 I have and all are in good shape.I fnd the Pike EZ to be better than the Swaty.
I think the binder in all of them including the 00 is/was very suceptible to breakdown from heat/humidity conditions and that may cause some to seem off/better/best.
I have one 2line Swaty thats useless for anything but a paperweight. Looks like it just dried out.
The Fernsler is another one I want to try, but theyre somewhat elusive. I suspect it could perform as well, but the abrasive is totally different so I also think the edge will feel different - better? Dunno. I like the idea of a shellac binder, Im planning on trying that next actually.


The small 00 I have now is in what appears to be new condition and its a peach.

i love it when people say things like 'dont lap them'. Poobahitis.
Lapping them is a bear, but if it needs to be resurfaced and conditioned its gotta get done. My large 00 performed poorly before being treated, but afterwards it was a screamer.

What I did to my 00s;
Lapped dead flat and progressed to 2k and the oiled and then lapped again from 600x up to 2k and oiled again.
Might have done that 3 times. I oiled it repeatedly until it was no longer dry.

Truthfully - to me the 00 is, at best, a 40-50 dollar hone. But Swatys and similar go for that so the 00 is going to be more expensive. For what they cost now, rediculous numbers, i'd buy an Escher - the Thuri is better, wont dissolve from heat, laps easy and the edges are better/friendlier.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Yeah, I'd agree. At $50, it'd be a fair hone. $35-40 just for the finishing side. But what are you gonna do? Pike EZ? Is that the Pike labeled Norton or is it the older one-sided Pike razor hone? Swaty's (and the several dozen copy-cat stones under other labels) are interesting stones to use, they need to break in somewhat like arks in that their binder really never lets abrasive loose, so the surface wears down into a decently fine finisher, but immediately after lapping (on anything other than diamond, as they are a mix of corundum and carborundum if memory serves), they're gonna be rough. But then there are those that are disintegrating, and they're not even worth using except for kicks. Basically, with use and practice, if you get one in good shape; there are plenty of barber hones out there I'd use just as soon as a Frictionite. The advantage of those is they are typically actually cheap enough someone MAY want to use them (in the same boat Cnats were in when they were 8x3" for $20-30), whereas frictionites, are for me, a collector stone that I sell as soon as I get one because, frankly, I don't see their bloated price holding up the way the Norton stones has. That said, I never went through the process you have of oiling and relapping. I polished it up, used it a few dozen times and was thoroughly disappointed (this is the first I owned, which I spent weeks lapping a dish out of).

And yes, if I owned a Thuri, I'd never so much as look at a frictionite... and I own a lot of Thuri's... hence my stance.

 

[Gamma]

Yeah - my 1st 00 wasn't worth spit until it was conditioned.
The Pike Ezy Edge - a suprisingly nice hone. Easy to lap too. But - I'd bet that there are a lot of them that are trash from being stored in attics or damp basements.
For whatever reasons - many of of those brown plate type b-hones I've tried are better off as door stops though.

Those hones weren't meant to last forever - they were a buck or two a pop and the manufacturers knew that most would eventually be dropped and broken. The fact that any survived is amazing. I like messing with them - I think they're pretty neat. Some are worth spending a few bucks on I think - esp for someone that likes the cool factor.

Thuris - very good stones, great even - and better than most b-hones in most regards.
But - there missing something that's hard to explain.
I've had many many hones in the bathroom where I shave - but I prefer to see a barber hone in there. I have a Tiger b-hone and two of my home-brewed pucks in there now.
I have many 'better' options I could keep in that cabinet; Cotis, Thuris, Arks, Jnats, etc.
I just don't. I like the carefree nature of the b-hone. Thuris have some sort of intrinsic value or something - can't explain it - I just want to take good care of them where the b-hones have a more rough-tumble presence.

Yeah - I'm a little nuts about some stuff sometimes.

 

[Beadog]

Great discussion, and thanks for the replies!

I will go ahead and lap my Frictionite and my 3 line Swarty up to 2K. I can get wet to dry paper in those grits at local auto parts stores. They both cleaned up fabulously with about 20 minutes of "self-cleaning oven cleaner" (I know, sounds crazy, but my wife had a can in a cabinet...why do you need cleaner for a self-cleaning oven??). I picked both hones up in the last 24 hours, simply because they were dirty and lonely, and both needed a good home!

So really, a good B-Hone is just a substitute for a fine finishing stone, for use as a quick "toucher-upper", but nowadays, many other "as good or better" options are available if one wants to completely skip having a B-hone...Is that correct?

 

[Gamma]

It's hard to replace the barber hone at the conceptual level. No maintenance, no fuss. Drop it in water and it's fine, small, light, inexpensive and very fast.

On a tactical level - lots of things will outperform (sharp/smooth) most, if not all, of the vintage b-hones - but most other options will not be as fast as the b-hone. Speed doesn't matter to most of us. But - to a barber - it was a critical concern.

 

[SliceOfLife]

A very hard and high abrasive ~6k JIS stone would be a pretty good modern replacement in my book.

 

[Beadog]

So I have to wait until a razor starts tugging before I can try out a B-Hone?!

Suppose one gets a very nice shave, but feels that the razor used could have been perhaps just a little more keen. Would you try 5 or 6 laps on a hone, or go back to a very fine finishing stone for 50 laps before the next shave? As some of you know from other posts, I am learning to hone on some Arkansas stones, so I think in terms of 50 lap sets between breaks!

 

[Gamma]

There are no rules - use it when you want to.

I'd rate my 00 significantly higher than 6k JIS, or at least - the cutting efficacy of the 00 edge is notably higher than what I'd expect from 1 6k stone.
I can go ATG easily off the 00, when the razor would hurt before using it. Can't get there with 6k JIS.
Whatever - on persons 8k is another persons 6k.
I would however put the bulk of the barber hones I've tried in/around there. Swaty's a good bit higher, same for the Pikes. With good handling on the hone, any of them seem to do a LOT better. I have an Aloxite that's pretty damn good too. Strange hone. Need to mess with it some more.
Problem is, I usually just hone an edge before it needs it. That makes fading edges a rare thing. I have a few razors dedicated to this though. But I don't use them all the time.

 

[Beadog]

Thanks, guys. I am getting a crash course here!