basic questions about "after the 8k"

[Krodor]

Baseline here: I've honed, I don't know...20-25 different vintage/raw razors by now, after the bevel being set, with a norton 4k / 8k, then to CrOx on balsa, FeOx on balsa, then stropping. All this finishing stone stuff has my head swimming.

1. So, if done right, can i do a Cnat/Jnat/coti/Thuri/BBW/whatever and skip the messy CrOx/FeOx? Or is that CrOx/FeOx an implied step after the finishing stone (like stropping)? I see Nani 12k's...if I get one of those and finish with it, is a CrOx step going backwards?
2. I've got an old Arkansas Washita stone here that, once lapped, is more reflective / glossy at an angle than my barber's hone...does that make it "higher grit" than my barber's hone, thus something that would work like a finishing stone? Maybe I should just try it. I've heard Washita's are fairly high grit, but dang, it feels smoother than my 4k side of the norton for sure.
3. Slurry stone...what, do you run the slurry stone chunk on the finishing stone itself for awhile to get the slurry going, or is the slurry stone just a little finishing stone you sacrifice to the DMT and somehow wash it onto the finishing stone?

Net of all this, the edge I get from my standard progression works fine, but I'd like to somehow not have to deal with the mess of the powder/paste, and I wonder if the edge is "harsh" given all this talk about natural stones giving "buttery" edges. Won't know until I compare. Maybe the next time, I'll just get the edge I like with the 8k like normal, then try the Arkansas (lots of passes...they are slow, I understand)...if that makes it worse, I'll have learned something. So in the meantime, should I save my pennies for a Cnat 12/15k (I see one on BST for cheap right now, which is why I am thinking about the topic)? Will that get me out of the CrOx/FeOx?

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Loric]

What you apply your sprays/coax with? Strops and felt bench strops made me feel like the finish was a bit harsh. However when I started using my lapped flat Spyderco UF I started getting very very good results from it. Much smoother and much sharper IMO.

That said I generally omit them now that I have honed enough razors to get good consistent results from just the stones. Also for what its wroth I would use some kind of finisher between the 8k and the pastes. Pastes seem to do well with big jumps in grit, but 8k to 30+K for corox is a BIG jump. I'd suggest using the barber hone you mentioned between them at very least. The Arkansas might be good, but they range quite a bit on grit and quality (not to mention that I have never used one). However my reading would suggest that if you have a translucent or black Arkansas it should be a great finisher AFTER the barber hone. The Arkansas are always very slow, similar to the CNat, and of a very high grit (again if its a translucent or black). So if you have a high grit Arkansas the only thing the Cnat would be is more forgiving of poor technique. Arkansas are notorious for punishing even just one or two bad passes. If however you have one of the lesser grades, the CNat might be a good addition between the barbers hone and the sprays/pastes.

I dont think sprays and crox are a step backward after a traditional finishing hone as they are are much higher grit (crox is 30K+ and .25 diamond spray is 60k). However if applied with a hanging or soft strop/bench strop they can change the shape of a bevel over time. Meaning that to refresh the bevel again, you have to take off much more metal than you would if you had only used traditional stones. However you can get many touch ups with just the paste/spray before that is needed and a touch up with them only takes seconds.

A slurry stone is used to make slurry. You are rubbing off some of the hone and slurry stone to make an abrasive paste. This speeds up the stone, but you have to dilute the slurry down to get the stone to slow down and polish the blade. This goes double for coticules as the garnets in them are odd shaped (not round) and they have a much more pronounced change in speed than most any other stone used with slurry. Its also a big part of the reason why a coti takes so much longer to learn. For some this makes them more fun and more satisfying, but its just extra time and aggravation for many.

 

[pelicano]

Buy some honing or camelia oil and try 100 to 200 laps on the Arkansas, then give it a good strop on leather and shave.
Vintage high grit Arks were considered better quality than the Charnley Forest, and the Charnleys give a very fine edge. Both are very slow stones.

Hone in groups of 20-25 strokes and take a break. There will be less chance of making a mistake than if you try a 100 laps at once.
If the shave is no good then give it another 100 laps, or try the pastes (though it shouldn't need them)
If it's still no good, give it another 100 laps, and try again. If it's like the Charley, it shouldn't refine the edge, it just polish it; so it could be that pastes go first, and then the rock. I use my Charnley after the Escher (if I feel like overkill). Experimentation is half the fun.
If it's a lower grit stone, consider a finisher.

Good luck.

 

[Krodor]

What do you apply your sprays/coax with?

balsa a la whippeddog.

That said I generally omit them now that I have honed enough razors to get good consistent results from just the stones. Also for what its wroth I would use some kind of finisher between the 8k and the pastes. Pastes seem to do well with big jumps in grit, but 8k to 30+K for corox is a BIG jump. I'd suggest using the barber hone you mentioned between them at very least.


Ahh...good idea. I have noticed that it is fairly easy to go from a HHT that jumps like crazy after the 8k to an ez-pop after the CrOx...however it doesn't seem to have much staying power...the edge doesn't last long. Maybe that is what you are getting at here...a mid-range stone between them might make the CrOx edge a bit more robust.


The Arkansas might be good, but they range quite a bit on grit and quality (not to mention that I have never used one). However my reading would suggest that if you have a translucent or black Arkansas it should be a great finisher AFTER the barber hone. The Arkansas are always very slow, similar to the CNat, and of a very high grit (again if its a translucent or black). So if you have a high grit Arkansas the only thing the Cnat would be is more forgiving of poor technique. Arkansas are notorious for punishing even just one or two bad passes. If however you have one of the lesser grades, the CNat might be a good addition between the barbers hone and the sprays/pastes.


Given the responses here:
nope, it's not one of them. greyish white, has flakes of black in it. I don't think it's one of the high grade ones.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...old-old-razor-stones...?p=3259203#post3259203

and a couple post-lapping pictures (no, it doesn't look smooth in 2nd pic, but 3rd you can see a reflection...just ignore the toothpicks...superglue work this afternoon.)

the old label has since rubbed off, but said "medium fine edge"...likely not a hyper-grit, and the responses there suggest the same. I guess my hopes of the Ark. stone being my happy-place isn't going to happen.

OK, well, I'll keep poking around and try out the barber-hone as a finisher, and if not, then barber-hone + CrOx and see if it makes for a more lasting edge.

 

[LarryAndro]

... after the bevel being set, with a norton 4k / 8k, then to CrOx on balsa, FeOx on balsa, then stropping....

The old timers went from 8K to leather frequently, as I understand. They also used abrasives, but not always. I think you can skip the CrOx and FeOx entirely. You might have to strop on leather a little longer than when you use the CrOx and FeOx though.

Most newbies don't have a hone, and so the various abrasives on various surfaces such as balsa make sense financially. If you can afford to buy hones, then it is even better.

 

[Krodor]

Thanks all!!!

 

[Thebigspendur]

The mark of someone who is good at honing a razor is the result he gets with the Norton 8K. You should be able to get a very good shaving edge indeed and a very smooth one too. Too many people never learn the basics and go on to more stones as a crutch thinking that's the way to a better and better edge. Sure, you can refine the edge with a higher grit stone but too many folks think they need to go finer and finer.

 

[Krodor]

Awesome advice...sounds like a great challenge to keep me busy and keep some cash in pocket. I appreciate it.

The mark of someone who is good at honing a razor is the result he gets with the Norton 8K. You should be able to get a very good shaving edge indeed and a very smooth one too. Too many people never learn the basics and go on to more stones as a crutch thinking that's the way to a better and better edge. Sure, you can refine the edge with a higher grit stone but too many folks think they need to go finer and finer.

 

[Seraphim]

The mark of someone who is good at honing a razor is the result he gets with the Norton 8K. You should be able to get a very good shaving edge indeed and a very smooth one too. Too many people never learn the basics and go on to more stones as a crutch thinking that's the way to a better and better edge. Sure, you can refine the edge with a higher grit stone but too many folks think they need to go finer and finer.

Pressure plays a role in how well any hone will finish--less presure=smoother edge.

One thing you can try for your 8k is to whip up some lather (yes, just like you'd use to shave ), slather it atop your hone, and finish off on that. Just like when shaving, the lather adds cushion which allows for less blade pressure against the hone, and thus a finer finish.

 

[Krodor]

Pressure plays a role in how well any hone will finish--less presure=smoother edge.

One thing you can try for your 8k is to whip up some lather (yes, just like you'd use to shave ), slather it atop your hone, and finish off on that. Just like when shaving, the lather adds cushion which allows for less blade pressure against the hone, and thus a finer finish.

Neat! Given my love for doing things the hard-but-satisfying-when-done way (see other posts, but unicycling, linux, straights, my particular job at work, etc fall into that category), this sounds like something I'm interested in...I've got some blades in hand that will need restoration / rehoning in the future, so I'll see what I can do in this vein. So it's Krodor's 8K Challenge...take an ebay-type straight and get a smooth shave off a bevel setter+4k/8k/felt/leather strop. Cool. Pyramids, freshly well-lapped hone, and pressure fluctuations....welp, I'll give it a go. Sounds like fun! I'll let you know how it goes when I try it.

 

[onimaru55]

Just one thing to add . A Washita stone is in no way considered a finisher, more like a bevel setter.

 

[Krodor]

Just one thing to add . A Washita stone is in no way considered a finisher, more like a bevel setter.

Okie dokie, thanks for the double confirmation. But dang, that is one slooooooow bevel setter. Why would anyone *do* that? Even in "the old days", surely there must have been something faster. Oh well, it's a rock, it's my deceased grandfather's, so it isn't going anywhere

 

[onimaru55]

They are indeed but as with all Novaculite stones they polish as much as they cut.
If I had to shave off a bevel setter I'd choose a Washita over a 1k synthetic any day
I dunno what you call old but there were such things as carborundum stones when i was a lad. They are pretty quick.

 

[tomjr]

i have several old carborundum hones and they are pretty fast cutters even the finer ones.

 

[paco664]

hows that black arkie lapping coming along?????

 

[Krodor]

You are evil, Paco. At this rate, Id guess about halfway there on the flattening part. few more hours on 220 dry for that. then to start polishing. making headway though....veeeery slowly.

 

[paco664]

You are evil, Paco. At this rate, Id guess about halfway there, few more hours on 220 dry, then to start polishing. making headway though....veeeery slowly.

try the other side it could be flatter to start with.....

 

[bhorsoft]

I'm using the Naniwa 12K followed by a few passes of CrOx on a paddle strop to finish. Right now, I'm an all Naniwa guy. There was a 5K, 8K, & 12K bundle that was pretty reasonable online, all I needed to buy was a 1k for bevel setting. I can shave just fine after the 12k, but the CrOx seems to add that extra bit of smoothness. I can actually shave after the 8k, but why bother when I can get smoother shaves by spending a bit more time with the finer stone.

 

[Kentos]

I'm using the Naniwa 12K followed by a few passes of CrOx on a paddle strop to finish. Right now, I'm an all Naniwa guy. There was a 5K, 8K, & 12K bundle that was pretty reasonable online, all I needed to buy was a 1k for bevel setting. I can shave just fine after the 12k, but the CrOx seems to add that extra bit of smoothness. I can actually shave after the 8k, but why bother when I can get smoother shaves by spending a bit more time with the finer stone.

That "why bother" mentality is what gets me in trouble all the time

 

[cb91710]

I run the following progression:

DMT1000, Norton 4k, Norton 8k, Naniwa 12k, C-Nat, .5um CrOX on linen, and finally leather (linen and leather on my Illinois 127)
C-Nat is probably 100-150 laps, 50 on CrOX, 75-100 on leather.

Edge is buttery smooth.