morris & forndran / rooney

[ChiefBroom]

Chief, although I just ordered two customs from Rudy, Iam hooked. I must have one of those brushes. I think you understand this. When I said hybrid I thought he was using Rooney knot with m& f handles & vice versa & Iam still confused. Iam going to be in London late this month & if I have not heard back from lee, I will attempt to track him on his home ground.

You'll get a prize for that.

Knots don't start out being Rooney, or M&F, or Simpson, or Plisson. They start out as badger hair. Hair from different badgers gets sorted into lots, or at least that's what I assume. Buyer's negotiate to purchase lots. Sometimes those buyer's may be individual brush makes who either keep the lot for exclusive use in making their own brushes, or part some of it off to others. If they sell some of, there might be no real difference between what they keep and what they let go, or they might sort and split it up based on their assessment of comparative quality. My sense is that some lots are bought by individuals/companies who serve as distributors. Where this leads is that I'm not sure how much sense it makes to think in terms of Rooney knots vs. M&F knots. And it's constantly changing anyway, depending on supply. You actually may be making it harder than it really is.

I think the best place to start is by trying some different kinds of knots to figure out characteristics you like, such as 2-band vs. 3-band, knot diameter, loft, density, soft, scrubby, scritchy, floppy, springy, etc. If you're lucky, you'll resolve to a fairly narrow set of criteria that will makes selection fairly simple. If you're not lucky, you'll end up like me and revel in variety.

 

[ChiefBroom]

I just goooogled M&Fshaving brush and got this as one of the results

Again (I think some people aren't paying attention) that's why it's best to uses brushes made of unicorn hair/horn. See
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/329039-Unicorn-hair?p=4819890#post4819890

And to keep this thread on topic, I'll note that Lee Sabini presumably make The Pooney, with is neither a Rooney nor an M&F.

 

[graysonhenryrussell]

Chief I haven't bought any brushes in years & just wanted to pick up several new ones since most of the ones I have came from ray at classic shaving before he died. This AD that I have acquired would not have come about had they not changed the formula on a shave cream I had been using since the early eightys. So I searched you guys out & here we are. Iam not sure yet if this is a blessing or curse. Grayson

 

[ChiefBroom]

Chief I haven't bought any brushes in years & just wanted to pick up several new ones since most of the ones I have came from ray at classic shaving before he died. This AD that I have acquired would not have come about had they not changed the formula on a shave cream I had been using since the early eightys. So I searched you guys out & here we are. Iam not sure yet if this is a blessing or curse. Grayson

Definitely a curse.

Question is whether or not you will embrace it.

Might be worth noting that RAD is not included in the list of mortal sins.

 

[OtherMoe]

Perhaps some of the confusion is around what Lee has offered up to various folks when asking about knots. I received a M&F from Lee back when Lee had a run of shedders and mine was one of them. When he remade the brush, he offered a knot made from the same as "Rooney 2-Band" or he had a little of the older (previous batch)of "blond" left. I assume he made the same offer to others and someone posted something about it.

 

[ChiefBroom]

Perhaps some of the confusion is around what Lee has offered up to various folks when asking about knots. I received a M&F from Lee back when Lee had a run of shedders and mine was one of them. When he remade the brush, he offered a knot made from the same as "Rooney 2-Band" or he had a little of the older (previous batch)of "blond" left. I assume he made the same offer to others and someone posted something about it.

Yes, my experience with him is that he'll try to understand what you want and then refer to different batches/knots he has that have this or that "feel". My impression sometimes has been that knots "surface" and he remembers and/or can identify when/where they likely came from and what other brushes they might be most like. It's not science, but so far what I've received is exactly what I was given to expect.

Of course he can't give every batch a different name.

On the other hand, it has occurred to me that it would be nice if brushes could be identified to batches. That would make it a lot easier for the user community to discuss and compare experience with a more-or-less common frame-of-reference. It could also be good marketing because collectors would likely go after multiple examples of the same style brush made from different batches, and all kinds of new brush lore could spin out based on real and imagined differences. Wouldn't that be fun?

Now that I think about it, they should identify knots to individual badgers.

 

[mistercitizen]

Man, am I just glad I happened to snag an M&F Blonde Badger on the B/S/T a couple months ago.

Ben

 

[OtherMoe]

Now that I think about it, they should identify knots to individual badgers.

Ah, yes. IBTID, Individual Badger Tracking and Identification. I hear the North Koreans are working on that

 

[ChiefBroom]

Ah, yes. IBTID, Individual Badger Tracking and Identification. I hear the North Koreans are working on that

Yes, ultimately what we need to move to though, is IBTID with genotyping. That would enable identification of badger family relatedness between/among brushes along with analysis of comparative knot characteristics, including correlation between specific sequence variations and their phenotypic manifestations.

At least that would yield some improvement in customers' ability to select brushes with confidence until we gain the real prize, which will be cloning badgers (i.e., the Old Rooney Finest line, even if it has been extinguished in existing badger populations).

I'm getting excited.

 

[htownmmm]

Now that I think about it, they should identify knots to individual badgers.

Who is going to bell the badger?

 

[Scritchnscrub]

sounds good,

sorry. i just thought the OP knew the Rooney/M&F connection, which later came after my post that he did not.

ok, here is the pic to confuse more people on M&F/Rooney connection....click if you choose:

Spoiler

View attachment 305722

Whoa, Bruce man...I peaked and you're freaking me out baby. By the way - that whole spoiler/show button thing is cool too.

 

[Scritchnscrub]

Yes, ultimately what we need to move to though, is IBTID with genotyping. That would enable identification of badger family relatedness between/among brushes along with analysis of comparative knot characteristics, including correlation between specific sequence variations and their phenotypic manifestations.

At least that would yield some improvement in customers' ability to select brushes with confidence until we gain the real prize, which will be cloning badgers (i.e., the Old Rooney Finest line, even if it has been extinguished in existing badger populations).

I'm getting excited.

Hail to the Chief!

 

[cessnabird]

To answer the op's question clearly, there is no hybrid brush. M&F and Rooney are "technically" separate companies. They offer similar styles and knots as one another. You can buy a Rooney brush from Classic Shaving or Vintage Blades, or you can purchase a M&F from Lee Sabini with more options for a more customized brush.

Long story short, Lee is Rooney, Rooney is Lee. I don't know or care if he actually owns or just partners with the Rooney business itself but they are nearly one in the same. There has always been a "mystery" behind who owns and works for whom, but we should all be keen enough to see that Lee is Rooney, at least is some way.

Regardless of ownership, they are magnificent brushes that ship out of England.

 

[Face&Head]

To answer the op's question clearly, there is no hybrid brush. M&F and Rooney are "technically" separate companies. They offer similar styles and knots as one another. You can buy a Rooney brush from Classic Shaving or Vintage Blades, or you can purchase a M&F from Lee Sabini with more options for a more customized brush.

Long story short, Lee is Rooney, Rooney is Lee. I don't know or care if he actually owns or just partners with the Rooney business itself but they are nearly one in the same. There has always been a "mystery" behind who owns and works for whom, but we should all be keen enough to see that Lee is Rooney, at least is some way.

Regardless of ownership, they are magnificent brushes that ship out of England.

This picture has brushes branded both Rooney and M&F. While you can tell the qualitative difference between Simpson and Vulfix, that's not really the case here.

 

[oakeshott]

This picture has brushes branded both Rooney and M&F. While you can tell the qualitative difference between Simpson and Vulfix, that's not really the case here.

View attachment 305984

this picture is rated R for excessive brush nudity. You must be accompanied by an adult.

 

[cessnabird]

Agreed Mark. That is just another reason we can confirm that Lee "is" Rooney. I have always wanted to state in the past that he is only "in some way" partnered with Rooney, because I hate to speculate, but when you have a personal picture from him of a M&F and a Rooney brush handle available on the same table in his workshop, do we really need to hear it directly from his mouth? There is less mystery in my mind regarding him being the lead man for Rooney. If he wasn't, Rooney would be none too happy.

You are right, that picture shows the same handles and knots with different logos. Once again, we all know they are two brands that are one in the same. I haven't needed anymore proof for a long time now.

Regardless of who actually lathes the handles and stuffs the badger hair, I will say that my M&F's and Rooney's have all been different from any other brush that I own. The hair is wonderful, the handles superb and the overall feel and performance of the brush both individual and very pleasurable. If you can tolerate the wait and communication gaffes many have experienced, a real jewel will arrive from the UK within weeks and provide you a lifetime of badger fun.

 

[brucered]

I wonder if the OP saw the 3 M&F's on the BST today

 

[graysonhenryrussell]

Did not see the ones on BST. Have made up my mind that I must have one from Mr sabini himself whatever it takes. Iam on a quest.

 

[cessnabird]

I wonder if the OP saw the 3 M&F's on the BST today

I am not a two band fan, but that blue Moonjava is tempting. I probably would have purchased it had I looked in time. It sure is purdy!

 

[ChiefBroom]

Did not see the ones on BST. Have made up my mind that I must have one from Mr sabini himself whatever it takes. Iam on a quest.

I think it just takes patience and persistence, but without scaring him off. I suspect if he gets a bad feeling about a potential customer for whatever reason, he simply drops communication. That's a guess.