Why are the 5/8'th razors getting smaller in blade widths?

[JPO]

The new production 5/8 razors from from Dovo and Böker have decreased in width in recent years.
What would be the reason for this?

They are also a little straighter along the cutting edge, and there is also less of a warp in them.

However, they have in my opinion removed some of the most valuable part of the steel. So, is this an improvement?
I have a Böker razor with allot of hone wear, but it is still wider then a new razor I recently baught.

 

[aussie]

So which shaves better - the old or the new?

I have a near wedge GW that has so much hone wear it is almost a full wedge. It's also 5/8 and is one of my best shavers.

 

[JPO]

So which shaves better - the old or the new?

I have a near wedge GW that has so much hone wear it is almost a full wedge. It's also 5/8 and is one of my best shavers.

I like a flexible blade, so I prefer the extra blade width.
For me it means I will probably never buy a 5/8 razor from any of these aforementioned suppliers again.
I would rather deal with some of the geometry issues, if that is the compromise.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

Can you share the measurements you took? I am curious to check and compare with the ones I have.

Also, did you already e-mail Dovo and/or Boker? Maybe their CS can answer this question.

 

[JPO]

Can you share the measurements you took? I am curious to check and compare with the ones I have.

Also, did you already e-mail Dovo and/or Boker? Maybe their CS can answer this question.

I have not done any measurements, I have only compared them side by side.
Jarrod at the superior shave also did a comparison with some dovo razors.
I see the same difference with Böker's razors.
My two extra hollow Böker razor do shave different, and the only difference is the blade width.

I did not email any of the razor makers. I don't think I would get a good answer to be honest.
I suspect it has something to do with complaints about how straight the cutting edge and razor is.
As you grind the razor you will have some wariance in blade width. Previously I think they valued the extra width over the perfect straight line, which probably was demanded by some of the customers.
It would be interesting to know if the razors for the European marked is different from the American marked.
Maybe they are still selling some old stock.

 

[Calyshaver]

It could be that the older Dovo's were more than 5/8. I recently purchased a "new" Sunday Shaver 91 that measures 11/16 consistently at the valleys of the fancy spine. My understanding is that the Sunday Shavers were produced in 2018.

I also have a brand new 4 Prima that I can measure once it gets back from the honer.

 

[JPO]

Can you share the measurements you took? I am curious to check and compare with the ones I have.

Also, did you already e-mail Dovo and/or Boker? Maybe their CS can answer this question.

It would be nice to see some measurements. I don't have enough similar sized razors to compare.
Böker vs Dovo might not be a good comparison.
This is a new Böker model and a older Dovo that came with the typical subtle frawn. So I think this is before they made the changes.
You can use the added tool for scale.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

It would be nice to see some measurements. I don't have enough similar sized razors to compare.

I checked some Boker 5/8s, first two are new/ish and last two are vintage:

1. This was my daily for 2 years and also the first razor I honed, so it does have a bit of wear.

2. A brand new one, acquired somewhere last year, I believe; never honed or used.

3. A vintage one, the bevel was set once and got 2-3 touch-ups (back to Tenjyou/Mejiro/Koma and then finishing with tomo nagura or something else), so barely any wear.

4. And I am going to throw another vintage in here, this time a razor which I picked up from the bucket of rusty pieces after the one I used before didn't have much steel left . I tested about 10-12 stones last week, so it does have some wear. What a great little piece, by the way. I need to find a replacement to take good care of.

 

[Steve56]

Jarrod has posted about this on one of his YT videos.

Basically they’re honing the frown out that everyone complained about, and if you hone a frown out, the blade is narrower and stiffer.

What he describes is not what I would do, but heck, what do I know. If I wanted to make a 6/8 straight razor with a straight edge, and just couldn’t grind a razor without a frown, I’d make a 13/16 with a frown and correct it to 6/8. I would not make a 6/8 with a frown and reduce the width.

 

[Legion]

Jarrod has posted about this on one of his YT videos.

Basically they’re honing the frown out that everyone complained about, and if you hone a frown out, the blade is narrower and stiffer.

What he describes is not what I would do, but heck, what do I know. If I wanted to make a 6/8 straight razor with a straight edge, and just couldn’t grind a razor without a frown, I’d make a 13/16 with a frown and correct it to 6/8. I would not make a 6/8 with a frown and reduce the width.

Makes sense. But those dies that stamp out the razors in the factory are probably really expensive to make, and the ones they use may be vintage, or at least fairly old. Easier just to short everybody on a little bit of razor than retool everything.

Plus, everything is getting smaller these days. Ice creams and chocolate bars were huge when I was a kid.

 

[JPO]

Jarrod has posted about this on one of his YT videos.

Basically they’re honing the frown out that everyone complained about, and if you hone a frown out, the blade is narrower and stiffer.

What he describes is not what I would do, but heck, what do I know. If I wanted to make a 6/8 straight razor with a straight edge, and just couldn’t grind a razor without a frown, I’d make a 13/16 with a frown and correct it to 6/8. I would not make a 6/8 with a frown and reduce the width.

Are the customers more demanding now then before?
I have a relatively new Dovo that came with subtle frawn. Decided to just hone it with a little attention to the heel and toe. I did not try to make it perfect. The intention was just to see how it shaved. To my surprise it was quite good, and definitely better (to me) then my smaller and stiffer Böker razor.
I guess the razor makers are responding to what the customers demands. I am just not sure they are selling a better end product.

I was just visiting Dovo's Web site. They are now offering a honing service as an option. You can also specify no honing. I am not sure what that means.
I think some of the issues with the grinding can be from when they set the bevel on a spinning wheel.
So, does the none option mean you are getting their previously markeded so-called shave razor?

 

[Legion]

Are the customers more demanding now then before?
I have a relatively new Dovo that came with subtle frawn. Decided to just hone it with a little attention to the heel and toe. I did not try to make it perfect. The intention was just to see how it shaved. To my surprise it was quite good, and definitely better (to me) then my smaller and stiffer Böker razor.
I guess the razor makers are responding to what the customers demands. I am just not sure they are selling a better end product.

I was just visiting Dovo's Web site. They are now offering a honing service as an option. You can also specify no honing. I am not sure what that means.
I think some of the issues with the grinding can be from when they set the bevel on a spinning wheel.
So, does the none option mean you are getting their previously markeded so-called shave razor?View attachment 1709339

I'd be guessing the frown is introduced when the little man puts the blade between the two spinning grinding wheels to hollow grind it. The middle ends up getting a little more time than the ends.

If you tick none you get whatever edge it left the factory with. Which (IME) is not shave ready. Sounds like they are finially admitting that, if they are charging an extra $40-60 for hand honing on top.

 

[JPO]

I'd be guessing the frown is introduced when the little man puts the blade between the two spinning grinding wheels to hollow grind it. The middle ends up getting a little more time than the ends.

If you tick none you get whatever edge it left the factory with. Which (IME) is not shave ready. Sounds like they are finially admitting that, if they are charging an extra $40-60 for hand honing on top.

The thiers issard razors does not seem to suffer from the same blade width shortening.
I am not sure that they even use the double spinning grinding wheels to grind the hollow section. Some of the TI blanks have a slight curve in the spine. I am not sure how well that would work with that system.
Some of the TI razors come with an edge that follow the curvature of the spine, while others are more straight.
I don't have any TI razors in the 5/8 size. It would be interesting to know the dimension of a typical Ti 5/8 compared to some of the newest Dovo and Böker razors.

 

[JPO]

I'd be guessing the frown is introduced when the little man puts the blade between the two spinning grinding wheels to hollow grind it. The middle ends up getting a little more time than the ends.

If you tick none you get whatever edge it left the factory with. Which (IME) is not shave ready. Sounds like they are finially admitting that, if they are charging an extra $40-60 for hand honing on top.

This is typically what you see on a factory edge, and this is one of the better i have seen. I know we are not shaving with microscope images, but you don't need to be a scientist to know what to expect from this type of edge.
This is a new Böker razor.
Sometimes this type of edge needs more work then it takes to set a new bevel.
So the non shave ready option should in my opinion be a dull blade without deep gauges that needs to be fixed.

 

[Goofy_Bee]

Maybe it's just a different type of measurement.
In the past SR-sizes were measured form the beginning of the hollow grind, the spine not included.
Another problem is the "inch". There have been several different Inches.
Why should a german manufacturer calculate in imperial (english) inch? They measured in "Rheinländischen Zoll" prussian inch. And that is/was bigger (26,15 mm).
Mayby modern maker forget about that fact and make new SR in imperial inches.

Here is a sheet from a 1930 Henckels SR catalog (sorry, in german) were the sizes are explained

Nowadays size matters (most). You can sell an old (real) 5/8" maybe as a 6/8" (imperal Inch and spine included). More money for less steel. Good, at least for the seller

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

In the past SR-sizes were measured form the beginning of the hollow grind, the spine not included.

As far as I know, that has not changed.

Another problem is the "inch". There have been several different Inches.
Why should a german manufacturer calculate in imperial (english) inch? They measured in "Rheinländischen Zoll" prussian inch. And that is/was bigger (26,15 mm).
Mayby modern maker forget about that fact and make new SR in imperial inches.

Here is a sheet from a 1930 Henckels SR catalog (sorry, in german) were the sizes are explained

I still think (at least) Dovo and Boker are using the pre-metric (Prussian) inch. If I remember correctly, the new Boker and vintage Boker with decorated spine measured 16.3 mm which is on par with the pre-metric inch. And so do the other 2x razors I showed above. As far as I can see, the Dovo measured by JPO shows 17.1 mm, although the caliper measures a bit more than just the width of the blade, so we can safely substract 0.5 mm from that. Visually, JPO's Boker seems about the same. So, at least to me, it seems we have 5x 5/8" Boker and 1x 5/8" Dovo razors which are OK.

L.E.: I measured the new 5/8" Boker and the vintage 5/8" Boker with decorated spine and both measure 16.35 mm between the edge and the honing line on the spine.

Nowadays size matters (most). You can sell an old (real) 5/8" maybe as a 6/8" (imperal Inch and spine included). More money for less steel. Good, at least for the seller

Spec for a 6/8" should be 19.61 mm, while a 5/8" should be 16.34 mm. Here's a new Boker acquired directly from them earlier this year. It was never used and never honed by me. Note that the toe is rounded off a bit. 0.02 mm delta between the ideal width and the real width is not too bad considering there are measuring erros on my side and secondly, this is not a high precision manufactured item. Besides, who cares for those 0.02 mm, they will probably come off anyway at the first bevel set.

 

[Goofy_Bee]

As far as I know, that has not changed.


I still think (at least) Dovo and Boker are using the pre-metric (Prussian) inch. If I remember correctly, the new Boker and vintage Boker with decorated spine measured 16.3 mm which is on par with the pre-metric inch. And so do the other 2x razors I showed above. As far as I can see, the Dovo measured by JPO shows 17.1 mm, although the caliper measures a bit more than just the width of the blade, so we can safely substract 0.5 mm from that. Visually, JPO's Boker seems about the same. So, at least to me, it seems we have 5x 5/8" Boker and 1x 5/8" Dovo razors which are OK.

L.E.: I measured the new 5/8" Boker and the vintage 5/8" Boker with decorated spine and both measure 16.35 mm between the edge and the honing line on the spine.


Spec for a 6/8" should be 19.61 mm, while a 5/8" should be 16.34 mm. Here's a new Boker acquired directly from them earlier this year. It was never used and never honed by me. Note that the toe is rounded off a bit. 0.02 mm delta between the ideal width and the real width is not too bad considering there are measuring erros on my side and secondly, this is not a high precision manufactured item. Besides, who cares for those 0.02 mm, they will probably come off anyway at the first bevel set.

View attachment 1709536

Yes, the differences are subtle I just want to point out the potentials for differences in size.
And I forgot to mention the blanks. Even when made in the same forging die, there are differences in size within the same batch. The grinder has to deal with it afterwards.