Mmkay, rather than turning the "NBA fans" thread into a Jordan vs. "the next Jordan" debate, I figured I'd make a separate thread to address some of the issues that were brought up on that thread. Several have claimed I'm missing some phenomenal basketball by not be an avid watcher these days. It is common for many of the younger fans (I'd say around 25 or so, and under) to have this misperception due to the propaganda being perpetuated by the NBA over the last 10 or so years. This thread is not meant as an attack on Kobe, or wetshavingmonkey, or anyone else. It is merely meant to expose the masquerade Mr. Stern has created. Not that I have anything against him, either. After all, it is his job to promote and make the league marketable.
I have been hearing this "the next Jordan" BS long before Jordan actually retired (the 2nd time). From Grant Hill, to Harold "what ever happened to get guy" Minor (aka "Baby Jordan"), to Kobe Bryant, to LeBron James, etc. There has been a never-ending stream of nominees to fill the void that Jordan left, pretenders to the throne. I'm sorry, but neither I, nor most others over 25 or so are drinking the Kool-Aid. Jumping as high, or making a few moves as acrobatic as Jordan does not make one "the next Jordan". Those of us that grew up watching him realize this and understand why.
No. I thought it was common knowledge that Kobe is a bit of a cry baby who doesn't like to listen, especially after Phil Jackson spelled it out himself in his book, The Last Season*...
"Throughout the book Phil Jackson criticizes Kobe Bryant for being childish and immature in his relationship with Kobe Bryant which was anything but pleasant. Phil Jackson details in his book how Kobe would refuse to listen to him..."*
So...are you saying the Lakers went from a 3 time championship team, to a team with nothing but lousy players (justifying Kobe's lack of winning and ball hogging), and now back to a championship team in a matter of a few years?
....based on what? He has yet to win a regular season MVP, OR a finals MVP. He has yet to lead the league in points, or lead his team to a championship sans Shaq. He is a very, very talented athlete who can undoubtedly make some incredible and critical shots. However, that is very different than being thoroughly dominant over the sport.
While he may have been selfish, that's not what the criticism was about. He was indeed surrounded by a bunch of less-than-talented players for his first 5 or 6 years, and subsequently, didn't have much choice in the matter. I mean....come on....Dave Corzine, Gene Banks, Ennis Whatley, Elston Turner, Sedale Threatt, Rory Sparrow, Brad Sellers, Sidney Green? These guys make the current Bulls roster look like an All-Star squad. The REAL problem with what critics said, and what got under Jordan's skin, was the concept that "a scoring champion doesn't win championships". Guess he kinda' blew THAT one out of the water.
This is the problem with the mentality of newer/younger NBA fans. I've seen countless such comments made by those claiming that (mostly Kobe, but a few others as well) is as good, if not better than Jordan. They point to an individual stat here and there, and suggest that this means a certain player is in the same league as another, failing to realize that the essence of Jordan and what he brought to the table was so far beyond his individual achievements AND even his total championships, that one could never understand unless s/he was there to witness his evolution unfold.
If Kobe and LeBron are able to surpass Jordan's scoring titles, or even win more championships in the future, that by no means indicates they were superior players. If that were the basis for declaring who's the best, there are countless players that could be unjustifiably written off as possibly being the greatest ever due to Jordan's achievements.
While we're at it, a few other things to keep in mind in this comparison if you want to turn it into a debate of stats:
And I could go on forever, but you get the idea. I just wanted to point out some of the more vital stats showing how often each was considered the most important player in the NBA, the bigger scorer WITH more accuracy, the better defender, etc. It should be noted that the league has watered down some of their rules to allow for more scoring (i.e. no hand checking). It should also be noted that Jordan's 15 seasons include that horrible little stint with the Wizards (granted, he DID set a few records, regardless of being a fraction of his former glory at age 39+), and a "semi-season" when he came back for 17 regular season games after his first retirement, collectively bringing down what would have been much higher averages (i.e. PPG, FG%, etc). His almost 2 year break after retirement #1 also prevented what more than likely would have been a couple more championships, and who knows how many more he could have rattled off with the Bulls had the team not been disassembled before retirement #2.
There's no boat to miss. KG and Kobe were around before the end of the Jordan era. And as I mentioned before, it's not like I haven't seen any NBA action over the last few years. I've watched plenty of games between the end of the Jordan era, and now. Why just a couple weeks ago, I caught Kobe and LeBron going at it. You're right, Kobe has a lot of talent (as does LeBron), and it was a decent game to watch. But as a whole, there is an aura and ambiance that just isn't being recaptured by this current school of players, and it is evident by the decline of popularity in the NBA. "NBA ratings have fallen almost 45 percent in the past decade."** That is HUGE!
I also highly doubt Stern went around telling the players "make sure to cover yourselves in tattoos, come to the games dressed like you just got done making a drug deal, have fist fights with the fans and coaches, and make gangsta' rap CDs in the off season". In fact, it was Stern who tried to suppress this image by pushing for things like the NBA dress code.*** Obviously, the entire league is not guilty of these thug characteristics, but in general, it HAS gone horribly downhill fast. Im not alone in feeling this way, as others who posted on the NBA fans thread indicated, and the dramatic decline in ratings further proves. Pro basketball is a dying sport.
Citation
*http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/257260/the_drama_that_has_centered_around.html
**http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=tmq/030610
***http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...iters/phil_taylor/10/12/taylor1012/index.html
Michael Jordan Stats: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/michael_jordan/index.html
Kobe Bryant Stats: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/career_stats.html
*Indicates record all-time high
I have been hearing this "the next Jordan" BS long before Jordan actually retired (the 2nd time). From Grant Hill, to Harold "what ever happened to get guy" Minor (aka "Baby Jordan"), to Kobe Bryant, to LeBron James, etc. There has been a never-ending stream of nominees to fill the void that Jordan left, pretenders to the throne. I'm sorry, but neither I, nor most others over 25 or so are drinking the Kool-Aid. Jumping as high, or making a few moves as acrobatic as Jordan does not make one "the next Jordan". Those of us that grew up watching him realize this and understand why.
It's interesting how many people consider Kobe to be a selfish player -- don't you think he is just doing what Phil Jackson tells him to do?
No. I thought it was common knowledge that Kobe is a bit of a cry baby who doesn't like to listen, especially after Phil Jackson spelled it out himself in his book, The Last Season*...
"Throughout the book Phil Jackson criticizes Kobe Bryant for being childish and immature in his relationship with Kobe Bryant which was anything but pleasant. Phil Jackson details in his book how Kobe would refuse to listen to him..."*
Now Kobe has some talent around him that he trusts, and if he wins a championship in the post Shaq era, it will be the same kind of lovefest as it was with Jordan.
So...are you saying the Lakers went from a 3 time championship team, to a team with nothing but lousy players (justifying Kobe's lack of winning and ball hogging), and now back to a championship team in a matter of a few years?
There are a lot of Kobe haters out there (especially after his sexual assault trial), but he is the best player one the planet right now
....based on what? He has yet to win a regular season MVP, OR a finals MVP. He has yet to lead the league in points, or lead his team to a championship sans Shaq. He is a very, very talented athlete who can undoubtedly make some incredible and critical shots. However, that is very different than being thoroughly dominant over the sport.
A lot of people seem to forget that Jordan was highly criticized early in his career for being a selfish player, but once they surrounded him with some decent talent that he trusted, and the Bulls racked up championships left and right, everybody began to love Jordan.
While he may have been selfish, that's not what the criticism was about. He was indeed surrounded by a bunch of less-than-talented players for his first 5 or 6 years, and subsequently, didn't have much choice in the matter. I mean....come on....Dave Corzine, Gene Banks, Ennis Whatley, Elston Turner, Sedale Threatt, Rory Sparrow, Brad Sellers, Sidney Green? These guys make the current Bulls roster look like an All-Star squad. The REAL problem with what critics said, and what got under Jordan's skin, was the concept that "a scoring champion doesn't win championships". Guess he kinda' blew THAT one out of the water.
You know, just yesterday, Kobe took over 3rd place all-time for most 40 point games in a career behind Jordan and Wilt Chambelain, so, like it or not, Kobe is also in that same dimension.
This is the problem with the mentality of newer/younger NBA fans. I've seen countless such comments made by those claiming that (mostly Kobe, but a few others as well) is as good, if not better than Jordan. They point to an individual stat here and there, and suggest that this means a certain player is in the same league as another, failing to realize that the essence of Jordan and what he brought to the table was so far beyond his individual achievements AND even his total championships, that one could never understand unless s/he was there to witness his evolution unfold.
If Kobe and LeBron are able to surpass Jordan's scoring titles, or even win more championships in the future, that by no means indicates they were superior players. If that were the basis for declaring who's the best, there are countless players that could be unjustifiably written off as possibly being the greatest ever due to Jordan's achievements.
Keep this in mind too -- Kobe is now about the same age as Jordan was when he won his first championship, and Kobe already has a 3 ring head start.
While we're at it, a few other things to keep in mind in this comparison if you want to turn it into a debate of stats:
- MVP: Jordan 5 times* (5 for 15); Kobe 0 times (0 for 12)
- Finals MVP: Jordan 6 times* (6 for 6); Kobe 0 times (0 for 3)
- Career scoring average: Jordan 30.1 pts*; Kobe 24.8 pts
- Career scoring average playoffs: Jordan 33.45 pts*; Kobe 23.3 pts
- FG percentage: Jordan 50%; Kobe 45%
- Steals per game champion: Jordan 3 times (#2 all-time steals); Kobe 0 times
- All-Defensive 1st team: Jordan 9 times (9 for 15); Kobe 4 times (4 for 12)
And I could go on forever, but you get the idea. I just wanted to point out some of the more vital stats showing how often each was considered the most important player in the NBA, the bigger scorer WITH more accuracy, the better defender, etc. It should be noted that the league has watered down some of their rules to allow for more scoring (i.e. no hand checking). It should also be noted that Jordan's 15 seasons include that horrible little stint with the Wizards (granted, he DID set a few records, regardless of being a fraction of his former glory at age 39+), and a "semi-season" when he came back for 17 regular season games after his first retirement, collectively bringing down what would have been much higher averages (i.e. PPG, FG%, etc). His almost 2 year break after retirement #1 also prevented what more than likely would have been a couple more championships, and who knows how many more he could have rattled off with the Bulls had the team not been disassembled before retirement #2.
Wow, I think you are really missing the boat, my friend. If you enjoyed the Jordan era, you really owe it to yourself to watch some Laker games and Kobe Bryant.
I think you owe it to yourself to get back into the game. There's a lot of great talent to go around (KG, GA next season, Kobe, and Bosh to name a few), and they don't resemble the thug image you'd like paint the entire NBA with.
There's no boat to miss. KG and Kobe were around before the end of the Jordan era. And as I mentioned before, it's not like I haven't seen any NBA action over the last few years. I've watched plenty of games between the end of the Jordan era, and now. Why just a couple weeks ago, I caught Kobe and LeBron going at it. You're right, Kobe has a lot of talent (as does LeBron), and it was a decent game to watch. But as a whole, there is an aura and ambiance that just isn't being recaptured by this current school of players, and it is evident by the decline of popularity in the NBA. "NBA ratings have fallen almost 45 percent in the past decade."** That is HUGE!
I also highly doubt Stern went around telling the players "make sure to cover yourselves in tattoos, come to the games dressed like you just got done making a drug deal, have fist fights with the fans and coaches, and make gangsta' rap CDs in the off season". In fact, it was Stern who tried to suppress this image by pushing for things like the NBA dress code.*** Obviously, the entire league is not guilty of these thug characteristics, but in general, it HAS gone horribly downhill fast. Im not alone in feeling this way, as others who posted on the NBA fans thread indicated, and the dramatic decline in ratings further proves. Pro basketball is a dying sport.
Citation
*http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/257260/the_drama_that_has_centered_around.html
**http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=tmq/030610
***http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...iters/phil_taylor/10/12/taylor1012/index.html
Michael Jordan Stats: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/michael_jordan/index.html
Kobe Bryant Stats: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/career_stats.html
*Indicates record all-time high