I change cars like I change underwear
New car time. Do you buy new and plan on keeping them a long time?
- Thread starter nsl
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Ah, Love my 93' 244 Volvo (5spd). It is my daily driver and frankly never lets me down.
To answer OP question: We buy generally very used cars that have minimal tech/computers in them.
I do all my own work so I like cars I can work on without having to go through a dealership.
A decade ago or so, our old (2004) Dodge Grand Caravan minivan was getting up there in age (204k miles), and it was starting to leak oil pretty badly. We had a church mission trip coming up that would require several hours of off-pavement driving through the Chihuahuan Desert along a combination of desert tracks and dry creek beds. With a little help from my parents, we were able to trade it in for a used (2007) Nissan Pathfinder with 4WD. Paid cash, no loan.
A couple of years later, in 2016, I accidentally ran a red light, t-boned another vehicle, and sustained front end damage (not me, the Pathfinder). Insurance totaled it out and gave me a check for the value. We then took that check and bought another used (2006) Nissan Pathfinder with 158k miles on it. Paid cash, no loan. That one lasted several years and did our family well, including multiple trips to Mexico. But it took a lot of work, including having the timing replaced. In 2021, it threw a rod at 228k miles, three blocks from our house. I was able to limp it home, and we sold it via Craigslist next day, to a dealer who planned to do an engine swap with it.
By that point, COVID-19 had taken its toll on the used car market. But we found a 2009 Chevy Traverse for $6000 that would require approximately $3000 worth of repairs. Our budge was $9000, so we bought it. Paid cash, no loan. It's had its issues and, as with the Pathfinder, repairs haven't been cheap. A year ago, it threw a code for loose timing chain. We had another Mexico mission trip coming up, and ours was the only vehicle making the drive (the other half of the team was flying in), so we didn't have the luxury to not get it fixed. A few months later (after getting back from Mexico), the new timing chain broke. I was sitting still in a parking lot at the time, so the engine wasn't ruined. Had it replaced for free under mechanic's warranty. Still dealing with back-pressure caused by clogged catalytic converter. Getting tired of throwing money at this thing.
So a couple of months ago, for the first time ever, we bought a second vehicle. The goal is for it to be my daily driver, and to keep the money-sucker around only for when we need the cargo space. What did we buy? It's a 22-year-old Focus with 204k miles on it. But it's a stick shift, parts are CHEAP, and practically every repair can be done in the driveway.
So, in summary:
My plan up till this point has been to buy used, then spend a lot of money on repairs. This doesn't seem to be the best plan.
My new plan is to buy used, but to make sure the car is substantially cheaper to repair. Hopefully this is a better plan.
A couple of years later, in 2016, I accidentally ran a red light, t-boned another vehicle, and sustained front end damage (not me, the Pathfinder). Insurance totaled it out and gave me a check for the value. We then took that check and bought another used (2006) Nissan Pathfinder with 158k miles on it. Paid cash, no loan. That one lasted several years and did our family well, including multiple trips to Mexico. But it took a lot of work, including having the timing replaced. In 2021, it threw a rod at 228k miles, three blocks from our house. I was able to limp it home, and we sold it via Craigslist next day, to a dealer who planned to do an engine swap with it.
By that point, COVID-19 had taken its toll on the used car market. But we found a 2009 Chevy Traverse for $6000 that would require approximately $3000 worth of repairs. Our budge was $9000, so we bought it. Paid cash, no loan. It's had its issues and, as with the Pathfinder, repairs haven't been cheap. A year ago, it threw a code for loose timing chain. We had another Mexico mission trip coming up, and ours was the only vehicle making the drive (the other half of the team was flying in), so we didn't have the luxury to not get it fixed. A few months later (after getting back from Mexico), the new timing chain broke. I was sitting still in a parking lot at the time, so the engine wasn't ruined. Had it replaced for free under mechanic's warranty. Still dealing with back-pressure caused by clogged catalytic converter. Getting tired of throwing money at this thing.
So a couple of months ago, for the first time ever, we bought a second vehicle. The goal is for it to be my daily driver, and to keep the money-sucker around only for when we need the cargo space. What did we buy? It's a 22-year-old Focus with 204k miles on it. But it's a stick shift, parts are CHEAP, and practically every repair can be done in the driveway.
So, in summary:
My plan up till this point has been to buy used, then spend a lot of money on repairs. This doesn't seem to be the best plan.
My new plan is to buy used, but to make sure the car is substantially cheaper to repair. Hopefully this is a better plan.
Camry's are great cars. We purchased a new 2023 Camry last year and it's excellent. Close to last chance to acquire a standard ICE drive train vehicle with a regular automatic transmission (no turbo, CVT or hybrid) that gets around 30MPG in the city and high 30's on the highway. First car in over 35 years for us that is not a Honda. Chose it over the Honda due to similar mileage with a more proven drive train (Honda Accords now have a small displacement engine with a turbo) and much better looking interior.2017 Toyota Camry with about 47,000 miles on it.
Best car I've ever owned.
My stepson totaled my '08 Honda Civic and Mrs. Lockback insisted on an SUV so we ended up getting a new 2023 Toyota Corolla Cross, which is their small SUV. I like it a lot, although the interior seems a little cheap looking and it's underpowered. But it's comfortable and has a ton of nice electronics on it ... which hopefully won't go black someday when some electrons make a wrong turn.
We buy our cars new and then keep them until repair costs become excessive, typically 10-12 years. Prior car was a 2014 Honda Accord with CVT that was also purchased new, gave that to my son for college in place of a 2010 Honda CRV with over 170,000 miles on it that had become too long in the tooth. That had been my wife's care until she replaced it two years ago with a 2022 Honda CRV.
We always purchase our cars, never lease. To keep costs manageable we don't let ourselves get sucked into the feature inflation that has driven up the cost of most new cars. Using the Camry as an example today's entry level Camry, the LE or Luxury Edition, has more features than most of us would have dreamed of 15-20 years ago including most of the desired modern automatic safety features, quality interior, power drivers seat, 6 speaker sound system and touch screen with Apple Play. For comparison purposes, my first new car, over 40 years ago, had hand crank windows, no air conditioning, and just a mono AM/FM radio. Not sure there are any current models in the market like that.
Especially like that the '23 Camry has a classic dashboard with the right analogue gauges, in combination with the touch screen that is in the middle of the dash. Still has physical buttons/knobs of key items to allow adjustment by touch when driving. Lots of the newer cars, especially electrics, just stick a large ipod on the dash with a touch screen as your only option for managing car features.
No real need/desire for the bell and whistle features of today's higher end cars such as leather seats, sunroof or slightly larger touch screen, with the same software, on the dash for thousands of dollars more. Also no need for AWD, with reduced mileage and smaller gas tank, for a car that was originally designed as just a FWD vehicle. Had to order the car for FWD as everything on the dealer lots was AWD.
Core chassis/drive train engineering quality is now standardize across most similar sized models offered by manufacturers. The 2.4 liter engine and 8 speed automatic in the entry level LE Camry is the same that is used on a Lexus 350 for example. Safety features are also becoming standard across all models. This leaves the manufacturers to rely primarily on bell and whistle features to differentiate the different models. Main exception to this is availability of different drive trains such as the ever rarer V6's, hybrids or all electric options.
The good news is that according to the latest Consumer Reports auto issue our Camry's are some of the most reliable cars out there. Your are right that cars have become more like computers on wheels and unfortunately most electronic devices are known more for planned early obsolescence versus long term reliability.Frankly, I even worry about Toyota. I did an in-depth deep dive on a lot of their cars a year ago when we bought our Corolla Cross and even Toyota seems to be leaning towards more complex stuff that could very well cause problems down the road. And their reliability seems to have dropped a bit, according to some sources. The number of sensors alone is staggering and few things are run by belts nowadays ... lots of electronics. I just don't have the faith in most modern vehicles; they've simply gotten too complex.
But, hey, I've been wrong before.
Also the the newer drive trains, focused on efficiency, have yet to prove if they are as reliable for 200,000+ miles as the classic ICE/multi speed auto combinations. Honda and Toyota build their reputations for reliability on the classic drive trains. So far Honda has proven that it's CVTs are reliable. While the 1.5/turbo engines should be fine for the first 100-125K miles the jury is still out on whether they will be as bullet proof as the classic drive trains for 200+ miles.
That is true for their vehicles with a classic ICE and multi-speed transmission.
Open question on the newer drive train configurations with CVTs , small displacement engines with a turbo and hybrid drive trains. In the case of electric vehicles the key question will be long term battery live. The rest of the mechanical components are simple compared to an ICE vehicle and likely can be maintained indefinitely. The problem is if the battery goes it's possible an older car could be totaled with a battery replacement cost that is higher than the value of the vehicle.
Yes, the CVTs have been out for over 10 years now and have proven to be reliable from most (not all) manufacturers when you look at published reliability statistics. No issues to-date on our 2014 Honda Accord with CVT as another anecdotal data point.
For the most reliable cars (e.g Honda or Toyota) they depreciate a far slower rate than many others and retain significant value even when over 10-12 years old. Newer used cars (2-4 years old) are selling for almost as much as the same new vehicles.
Last year a 13 year old Honda CRV with over 170,000 miles had a trade in value of $4,500 U.S. and were selling at retail for $8-9,000. Years ago (1980's and 90's) a car at that age with that many miles would have almost no value. On might get $500 in a trade almost as a convenience service from the dealer to help close the new car sale. This started to change in the early 2000's.
So does that mean you need to keep your cars longer or change your underwear more often?
I'll be curious to see if Toyota's CVT proves to be as reliable as Honda's. We have one in the Cross and while I'm not a fan of them overall, this one is decent, although the engine is a bit underpowered so the transmission gets wound up pretty good when you're entering a freeway.
We put so few miles on our cars, they could last forever but as someone who appreciates great engineering and excellent quality control, I've cast my lot with Toyota and Honda for a couple of decades now.
My aunt gave me a '88 744 (I think that's the right number) GLE wagon some years ago. It was the best car I'd owned up to that point. Unfortunately an accident totaled the car. Interestingly I drove that car home after the accident. It sat in my driveway for a couple of weeks and I finally donated it. When the wrecker came to take it away I started it, (both headlights still working) and backed it out of the driveway to the wrecker. The radiator had been laid nearly flat from the accident.
It was an awesome car to drive and to work on.
My favorite car, if I'd the money to throw into a couple of potential garage queens would be a Volvo's P1800ES Wagon and Coupe. I think Volvo should revive the look of both these iconic vehicles.
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I admit that I have not actually looked at the reliability data. I pretty much unabashedly rely on what Scotty Kilmer says in his You Tube videos. I do not think he favors any CVT transmission, but will admit at this point that at least the Honda CVT and maybe the Toyota CVTs seem to be holding up pretty well. My impression they are very expensive and perhaps impossible to fix if they do break though. Not many around who can rebuild them competently, for instance.
I think Hr. Kilmer is very down on whatever brand of CVT Nissan uses, that other marks also use.
I had a 2003 Nissan Murano, I think the second year Murano's were out. It had a CVT and I think was one of the first cars to have one. I put over 180k miles on that car and never had transmission, or for that matter, engine troubles. I do not think the car has a great reputation for reliability in any respect, but for me it was highly reliable. Great car. Everything held up pretty well on it, except it seems to go through brakes and batteries more than would be expected.
Sitting here in the garage thinking about the original question....I have 6 vehicles I have had 25+ years. All in top shape and used regularly.
Mad props to you!
I had a 2003 Tundra that I drove over 600,000 kms before it rusted away underneath (not the frame so much, but everything else) but the motor was still running great.
No complaints.
But it's comfortable and has a ton of nice electronics on it ... which hopefully won't go black someday when some electrons make a wrong turn.
I remember one wise online mechanic pointing out that, while you can get an old used Lexus cheaply, "the repairs are still on a luxury car budget".
Growing up, our family was a Chev/GM family. I broke the tradition when I bought my first vehicle ... a Toyota. Then my brother followed suit buying a Toyota for his first car. Eventually my parents followed suit, and now we're a Toyota family.
I remember when Detroit vehicles came with a 5-numeral-wheel odometer. Yeah, nobody expected the car to make it much past 100,000 miles ... let alone for there to be any question about whether the numbers have rolled over more than once.
Four times a year whether you need to or not?
We’re now a blended family. My brother drives a ford, his wife drives a Toyota, and his son drives a Subaru. My mom was driving a Mazda when she passed, and my dad drives a Toyota. My wife (Buick) and I are the last GM drivers in the family.
Can’t turn cars inside out like you can undies.
