Thanks man!
Lapping film, try it.
- Thread starter Blix
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You might want to check out Lee Valley, a very well respected tool maker (Vertias) and vendor. They sell 3M paper, glass lapping plates, as well as a lot of other sharpening supplies https://www.leevalley.com If you are in Canada they might even have a store near by.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Keep in mind that what is wanted is film, not paper. Lapping film, not polishing film or finishing film. 3M type 261 or in the case of 1µ, possibly type 262.
If you’re still looking, you can get the right films from digikey.com. That’s where I got mine. Not sure if they ship overseas though.
Abrasives and Surface Conditioning Products | Electronic Components Distributor DigiKey
Abrasives and Surface Conditioning Products are in stock at DigiKey. Order Now! Tools ship same day
The films you want are all 3M series 261X and except the 1um film which is series 262X for some reason.
Pro tip: order more sheets and more grits than you think you’ll need. I ordered one sheet of 12 through 1um and wish I ordered coarser grits and more sheets of each.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
You can always cut up a couple of your extra sheets of each grit into sizes that will fit in an ordinary business envelope, and sell or PIF lapping film intro kits. It won't go bad on you.If you’re still looking, you can get the right films from digikey.com. That’s where I got mine. Not sure if they ship overseas though.
Abrasives and Surface Conditioning Products | Electronic Components Distributor DigiKey
Abrasives and Surface Conditioning Products are in stock at DigiKey. Order Now! Tools ship same daywww.digikey.com
The films you want are all 3M series 261X and except the 1um film which is series 262X for some reason.
Pro tip: order more sheets and more grits than you think you’ll need. I ordered one sheet of 12 through 1um and wish I ordered coarser grits and more sheets of each.
I could never figure that 262x business out, either, why 1µ is not available in type 261x. But it seems exactly the same as type 261x. Well, except for the grit.
Hi all,
Newbie straight shaver here, and just wanted to say a big thankyou for the great information in this thread. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a shave ready all-Sheffield Kropp from DC Blades here in Australia. Within about ten days of daily shaves, largely I guess due to my terrible stropping technique, I'd managed to mangle the nice sharp edge it came with, so I figured I'd best try to recover it. I found this thread and read it through, and thought it seemed like a decent way to go.
So I picked up a 12" x 3" x 1" acrylic block and a couple of sheets of 3u and 1u film and got to it. Following the instructions it seemed pretty simple and I figured 30 laps on the 1u would do it. First shave with the refreshed edge was ... terrible! Sharper on some respects but also tuggier and more irritating. So I went back for another go and figured maybe I needed some time on the 3u first? Again I sort of guessed a lap count and the results were even worse than before. Oh no!
So, third time I ignored lap count and just concentrated on feedback from the film. 10 laps, then 2 pull strokes, end to end the plate, and repeat. Think I did about 80 on the 3u and 60 on the 1u, and only stopped when the stiction from the blade was so strong it felt like it was torquing the edge into the acrylic. No fancy finishing, just ended with 10 light standard laps. Well, third time's a charm, and the result definitely seems to be decently sharp with no tugging at all on chin and neck (WTG only for now). It's like a 3 day old Gem SE blade level of sharp and very comfortable.
Can I do better? Probably. I did feel a sort of roughness when using the 1u film, like I was dragging the blade over an uneven surface, and there were a couple of black dots on the film near there. So lovely a bit more attention to keeping the plate clean is in order. But the heavy stiction suggested that it was not fatally compromised by this.
Now a question. I have three balsa strops set up and ready to go once my diamond paste gets in. Do I leave off on those and try to work a bit more with my technique on the film or just start with the strops from here?
Newbie straight shaver here, and just wanted to say a big thankyou for the great information in this thread. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a shave ready all-Sheffield Kropp from DC Blades here in Australia. Within about ten days of daily shaves, largely I guess due to my terrible stropping technique, I'd managed to mangle the nice sharp edge it came with, so I figured I'd best try to recover it. I found this thread and read it through, and thought it seemed like a decent way to go.
So I picked up a 12" x 3" x 1" acrylic block and a couple of sheets of 3u and 1u film and got to it. Following the instructions it seemed pretty simple and I figured 30 laps on the 1u would do it. First shave with the refreshed edge was ... terrible! Sharper on some respects but also tuggier and more irritating. So I went back for another go and figured maybe I needed some time on the 3u first? Again I sort of guessed a lap count and the results were even worse than before. Oh no!
So, third time I ignored lap count and just concentrated on feedback from the film. 10 laps, then 2 pull strokes, end to end the plate, and repeat. Think I did about 80 on the 3u and 60 on the 1u, and only stopped when the stiction from the blade was so strong it felt like it was torquing the edge into the acrylic. No fancy finishing, just ended with 10 light standard laps. Well, third time's a charm, and the result definitely seems to be decently sharp with no tugging at all on chin and neck (WTG only for now). It's like a 3 day old Gem SE blade level of sharp and very comfortable.
Can I do better? Probably. I did feel a sort of roughness when using the 1u film, like I was dragging the blade over an uneven surface, and there were a couple of black dots on the film near there. So lovely a bit more attention to keeping the plate clean is in order. But the heavy stiction suggested that it was not fatally compromised by this.
Now a question. I have three balsa strops set up and ready to go once my diamond paste gets in. Do I leave off on those and try to work a bit more with my technique on the film or just start with the strops from here?
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
You are a slightly slower learner than me. I got a good shave-ready edge off lapping film on my second go. I think I probably followed the instructions more diligently than you initially did.
As for your diamond pasted balsa strops, if you have studied their instructions, you will know that they do not make an edge shave-ready. They only make an already good shave-ready edge even keener.
That being the case, I would recommend that you do not move on the diamond pasted balsa strops until you can consistently get a good shave-ready edge using just lapping films. Once you reach that level with lapping films, refresh the edge on lapping film(s) and then move on to diamond pasted balsa strops.
As for your diamond pasted balsa strops, if you have studied their instructions, you will know that they do not make an edge shave-ready. They only make an already good shave-ready edge even keener.
That being the case, I would recommend that you do not move on the diamond pasted balsa strops until you can consistently get a good shave-ready edge using just lapping films. Once you reach that level with lapping films, refresh the edge on lapping film(s) and then move on to diamond pasted balsa strops.
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
More often it is not bad stropping technique that quickly dulls an edge, it is shaving technique. Have you read and followed the instructions here:
www.badgerandblade.com
As for shaving off diamond pasted balsa strops, some find a balsa strop edge just too keen for their liking. They are use to a less keen edge that is more forgiving during a shave. If you develop your initial SR shaving technique using a balsa strop edge, you may later find other edges not quite keen enough. Just be warned.
Traditional SR Shaving Instructions for Beginners - Issue 7
Attached is the latest issue (issue 7) of Traditional SR Shaving Instructions For Beginners. The instructions have been revised to show the current knowledge and have been split up into parts for easier access. The parts are: SR Shaving Instructions QS Guide Rev A - a Quick-Start guide for...
www.badgerandblade.com
As for shaving off diamond pasted balsa strops, some find a balsa strop edge just too keen for their liking. They are use to a less keen edge that is more forgiving during a shave. If you develop your initial SR shaving technique using a balsa strop edge, you may later find other edges not quite keen enough. Just be warned.
While I do get a shaving edge by following the process, I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing. Specifically, I start by spraying some water to hone on the film and the water drains off due to the way I hold the acrylic. Well not entirely, a few drops continue to stay. Should I refresh the water at this point?
If I refresh the water, it seems like I never get to stiction. I kinda get a stiction if I don't refresh the water.
If I refresh the water, it seems like I never get to stiction. I kinda get a stiction if I don't refresh the water.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Ah, the mysterious black bumps. Usually this indicates debris under the film, but no matter how careful I am, sometimes I get one or two, even when I KNOW there is nothing under the film. I suspect the problem sometimes is debris on TOP of the film, and maybe it creates a localized spot that attracts and holds swarf.
Next time you mount a new piece of film, try a gentle scrub with an old toothbrush after every razor. Also try mounting your film in the sink, underwater. This prevents tiny air bubbles under the film.
Meanwhile, when you DO have a black bump and you can't work around it, you could try to buff it off with a tiny bit of coarser film or sandpaper. When you are done, rinse well, maybe apply a light scrub with a toothbrush, so any coarse grit left by the coarser medium is removed. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
Yes, do try to perfect your 1µ edge before going bananas with the balsa. Be sure to lap your balsa after glueing to the acrylic and before applying the paste, and be sure to wipe down the balsa thoroughly to remove excess paste. You WILL apply too much. Everyone does.So just do it and then wipe it off really good. Remember to wash your hands between grits, whether applying, or using. Also do the application on the finest one first. A trace of finer grit contaminating a coarser one is not the end of the world, but a trace of a coarser grit contaminating a finer one is a disaster.
When finishing on the 1µ film, yes of course mix in some pull strokes, but end the stage with very short X strokes, lightest possible pressure. I like about 20, after peak stiction is reached using full length strokes. Easy way is just use the last 3" of the film and ignore the rest, as if your plate and film were only that long, and do a good x stroke. It really does make a difference. And use an area right at the end of the film for your pull strokes, because there is some risk of slicing the film. Slice an inch off the end, you are still in the game. Slice the film in the middle and its wailing and gnashing of teeth time.
Apply your film with the substrate flat on the bench, flood with water using a squirt bottle. Lab rinse bottles are best and allow you to apply a drop or flood the surface. Then place your film on the puddle and squeegee the water from the middle to each end. Your film should stick well to the substrate.
I use 12X3 inch glass tiles, $4 at Big Box hardware stores. I lap them flat on a sheet of 220 which leaves a matt frosted finish, dead flat and film sticks to it as if glued.
A drop of dish soap, just a drop, or Jet dry, (I buy Wall Mart brand for a few dollars) Jet Dry or soap breaks the surface tension and allows the water to flow evenly on the surface. A drop or two in a bottle of water will not foam when honing.
When working with film, you must, work clean, wash your hands, the substrate, film and razor. If the tiniest speck gets under the film, you must remove the film and wash the film and substrate.
A1um edge, followed by a 1um over a sheet of copy paper is a nice shaving edge.
I use 12X3 inch glass tiles, $4 at Big Box hardware stores. I lap them flat on a sheet of 220 which leaves a matt frosted finish, dead flat and film sticks to it as if glued.
A drop of dish soap, just a drop, or Jet dry, (I buy Wall Mart brand for a few dollars) Jet Dry or soap breaks the surface tension and allows the water to flow evenly on the surface. A drop or two in a bottle of water will not foam when honing.
When working with film, you must, work clean, wash your hands, the substrate, film and razor. If the tiniest speck gets under the film, you must remove the film and wash the film and substrate.
A1um edge, followed by a 1um over a sheet of copy paper is a nice shaving edge.
More often it is not bad stropping technique that quickly dulls an edge, it is shaving technique. Have you read and followed the instructions here:
Traditional SR Shaving Instructions for Beginners - Issue 7
Attached is the latest issue (issue 7) of Traditional SR Shaving Instructions For Beginners. The instructions have been revised to show the current knowledge and have been split up into parts for easier access. The parts are: SR Shaving Instructions QS Guide Rev A - a Quick-Start guide for...
Thanks! Yes I've looked at your helpful instructions. I'm pretty certain it's the stropping not the shaving. I've used a Gem MMOC for several years and found adapting to a straight very intuitive - blade angle is similar or just slightly steeper, and the straight is actually easier to handle around the curves of the chin and jawline (where a safety razor just can't physically go steep enough). The shaves themselves are more comfortable and irritation free than any DE or SE I've tried.
Stropping by contrast... my strop is thick and quite waxy and the Kropp is quite light, so "just the weight of the blade" skitters over the surface and only strops the spine. It has been a slow process to figure out that some downward pressure on the spine is needed to maintain edge contact with the strop and for the first ten days or so I think my stropping was largely ineffectual.
Thanks for all the great tips. This is particularly smart! I do already do this in the sink and flood everything with water but not underwater, so there are always the tiny bubbles which are hard to eliminate. Will give this a try and see if it helps.
Nice, I will try that. The x-strokes are still edge-leading? And is the x-part always heel-leading or both heel- and toe-leading, or doesn't matter?
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
Yes, the instructions are not that correct with regard to stropping pressure. They will be soon revised, once I work out a way to properly word the required stropping pressure.
It’s stropping. Stropping is more difficult to master than honing.
It only takes a single errant stroke to roll an edge, slam the edge into the strop or back the edge into the strop.
Hold the razor with your thumb and forefinger holding the tang by opposite corners, so you can flip the razor with your thumb, like a light switch.
If you flip with your wrist, you can slam the edge into the strop. Do not use pressure, you will roll the edge, use just enough pressure to keep the razor flat on the strop, bevel, and spine. Strop the razor to the end of the strop, strop, flip and start the forward motion, then gently lay the bevel on to the strop once the razor is moving spine leading.
The spine never leaves the strop, make sure to stop forward motion then flip.
Make sure your strop is clean a dirty strop is an abrasive strop of unknow grit.
If you roll the edge, very easy to do, joint the edge and reset it on your finish stone or 1um film, if the bevels were meeting prior, 10-20 laps.
It only takes a single errant stroke to roll an edge, slam the edge into the strop or back the edge into the strop.
Hold the razor with your thumb and forefinger holding the tang by opposite corners, so you can flip the razor with your thumb, like a light switch.
If you flip with your wrist, you can slam the edge into the strop. Do not use pressure, you will roll the edge, use just enough pressure to keep the razor flat on the strop, bevel, and spine. Strop the razor to the end of the strop, strop, flip and start the forward motion, then gently lay the bevel on to the strop once the razor is moving spine leading.
The spine never leaves the strop, make sure to stop forward motion then flip.
Make sure your strop is clean a dirty strop is an abrasive strop of unknow grit.
If you roll the edge, very easy to do, joint the edge and reset it on your finish stone or 1um film, if the bevels were meeting prior, 10-20 laps.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Yes, edge leading. Heel/toe leading and the angle is up to you and depends on other factors but a slight heel leading angle is most popular, I would imagine.
When stropping, make sure you are applying a slight torque on the razor so that about half of your stropping pressure goes to the edge.Try faster or slower strokes, too. If your strop is quite goopy with grease or wax or lanolin or whatevah, you could try wiping with a clean rag spritzed with acetone, but only if it is a cheap and expendable strop. An over-oiled strop can sometimes be rescued by packing it for a couple of weeks in bentonite clay type kitty litter or garage floor oil absorbent granules. If it is a $350 custom made from rare endangered albino dwarf himalayan mountain hippo shell leather, ask the maker what to do.
Thanks, all. The hard part in the stropping was figuring out what actually to aim for. Once that becomes clear the rest is just practice. One thing I figured out is that lots of the starter's tips are sort of directed towards people who are naturally more heavy handed to stop them whaling on the blade. I have a very light touch and so following the instructions literally didn't really work. But now I've figured what a good stroke on the strop sounds and feels like it's a matter of developing repeatability. The edge hasn't gone downhill in the five shaves since honing so I think I am on the right track.
The strop I have is very expendable, so I might experiment on it a bit. Or just make do with it for now, as it's basically fine, until I get a nicer one down the track.
The strop I have is very expendable, so I might experiment on it a bit. Or just make do with it for now, as it's basically fine, until I get a nicer one down the track.
Stropping is your last chance to align and polish the edge. The edge is so thin, that you can not see it, except with an SEM. So, it is very easy to ruin the edge by stropping incorrectly or using a contaminated strop.
You should learn on a new clean strop. I believe Tony Miller has an entry level strop around $50, money well spent.
Also stropping on clean linen is way more important than leather, Linen is micro abrasive, leather is your final polish and edge aligning. You do not need a lot of laps 10 of each is plenty.
Make sure to strop on linen after shaving to clean the blade. If not the edge will begin to rust over night.
Look at your bevel and edge with magnification, if you see deep random scratches on the bevel, the strop is contaminated.
You should learn on a new clean strop. I believe Tony Miller has an entry level strop around $50, money well spent.
Also stropping on clean linen is way more important than leather, Linen is micro abrasive, leather is your final polish and edge aligning. You do not need a lot of laps 10 of each is plenty.
Make sure to strop on linen after shaving to clean the blade. If not the edge will begin to rust over night.
Look at your bevel and edge with magnification, if you see deep random scratches on the bevel, the strop is contaminated.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
+1. Unfortunately $50 is the new $30. A strop from Tony will be well constructed with good QC and isn't but a couple bucks more than an Illinois 127.
I haven't used linen in probably 25 years. My edges don't rust overnight. But yeah, clean strop is important.
@rhgg2 you can also make a strop for not too much money that will gitter done. The D rings can be hard to source cheaply in big enough size, is all. Don't use leather from Tandy, etc. It is mostly crap. Get a 3" wide strip of 8oz to 10oz veg tanned leather from McMaster-Carr a foot or a bit more than the desired length of actual stropping area. You will cut two 5" long pieces for the bolsters, or end caps, that go through the D rings and fold over onto the body of the strop. Overlap will be about 3/4" on each end of the strop body. Assemble and drill three holes at each end, for the chicago screws. You can chamfer the edges of the leather with a skiving tool if desired, or make up something out of a SE razor blade, or carefully sand the edge, or actually you can usually get away with doing nothing at all. The leather should not need any treatment but if you insist, you can rub in a few DROPS of Neats Food Oil. I have also made up witches brews of Neats Foot, beeswax, and beef tallow. It isn't as big a deal as many say it is, just don't overdo it. Everybody does, anyway. But don't.
The nice thing about a simple leather strop with a D ring at each end is if you put a big slice in one edge, you can just swap ends and hang it the other way up, and then your booboo is over on your off hand side, where it will not impact your stropping. If your strop is 3" wide you can also easily trim a tiny bit from either or both edges, too, or even replace the strop body alltogether and use the same bolsters and hardware. I suggest making a jig or template out of aluminum or steel for indexing holes, for consistency and repeatability.
Always use three holes per end. If the strop begins to cup, enlarge the two outlying holes on either side of the centerline hole slightly. It's magic.
BTW, if you buy a strop from Tony, and you devastate the strop body, you can buy another piece from him, already drilled and ready to swap out from the destroyed one.
Thanks @Slash McCoy . Unfortunately I am in Australia so sourcing raw materials for a DIY job would be as expensive as just buying one! (I'd have to buy half a hide or something) I think I will get one of Tony's as I don't seem to be prone to carving the strop up and it just eliminates an unknown variable if the strop is known good.
Back on topic... I had another round with the 1u film today. Much easier to gauge the pressure and do lighter laps while maintaining edge and spine contact. I think the lighter pressure and not running the 3u first meant more laps before achieving stiction (70 or so). Finished off with 25 short X laps with heavy stiction by the end. Bevel is mirrored with an obvious diagonal scratch pattern. Looking forward to trying it out tomorrow!
Back on topic... I had another round with the 1u film today. Much easier to gauge the pressure and do lighter laps while maintaining edge and spine contact. I think the lighter pressure and not running the 3u first meant more laps before achieving stiction (70 or so). Finished off with 25 short X laps with heavy stiction by the end. Bevel is mirrored with an obvious diagonal scratch pattern. Looking forward to trying it out tomorrow!
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
Tony's strops are very good quality and I highly recommend them. The only problem is that the cost to ship them to AU is about the same as it is to buy one.
Saddlemakes are your best bet to source stropping leather at a reasonable price. They can also help you in sourcing strop hardware. We have a good saddlemaker in Mareeba.
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