Sorry, Alex.
Is that what we call "purple" colour? Sometimes exact "colours" names translate poorly into another language...
Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers
- Thread starter GBinOZ
- Start date
Sorry, Alex.
Is that what we call "purple" colour? Sometimes exact "colours" names translate poorly into another language...
R
romsitsa
Hello,
I continued the BB list in a spreadsheet, so there are a few missing.
E010615 came in the earliest metal case with script logo and razor securing pin, iirc this is the first one with a British serial on the inner barrel, so I look at it as a missing link.
The ebay pics are gone by now, but maybe someone can provide photos of it...
I found another early example and forgot to add it to my list (also no photos). This is from an email I sent earlier:
"...Single ring in a Script case. The razor has the Pat. Nov. or Pat. Nov... N marking and serial is on the inner barrel, E 44328.
The US E series shouldn't have the serial on the inner barrel as it was changed during B."
So the lowest British serial would be E 010615 and the lowest without a leading zero is probably E 44328.
Sorry for the confusion,
Adam
I continued the BB list in a spreadsheet, so there are a few missing.
E010615 came in the earliest metal case with script logo and razor securing pin, iirc this is the first one with a British serial on the inner barrel, so I look at it as a missing link.
The ebay pics are gone by now, but maybe someone can provide photos of it...
I found another early example and forgot to add it to my list (also no photos). This is from an email I sent earlier:
"...Single ring in a Script case. The razor has the Pat. Nov. or Pat. Nov... N marking and serial is on the inner barrel, E 44328.
The US E series shouldn't have the serial on the inner barrel as it was changed during B."
So the lowest British serial would be E 010615 and the lowest without a leading zero is probably E 44328.
Sorry for the confusion,
Adam
R
romsitsa
Hello Glenn,
to be honest I never tried to edit the Wiki chart, made my own...
I can mail it, if intereseted.
Adam
to be honest I never tried to edit the Wiki chart, made my own...
I can mail it, if intereseted.
Adam
Aha, now I get it. Thanks, Adam. Well done!
I said it above... can't even think of updating the Wiki... Now looks like a terrible task (for me)... Since the refurbishment of the site it seems to be "complicated"...
Thanks Adam I would be interested in the spreadsheet . Have you collected enough information to formulate a theory?
Glenn
theory on what
Hi Alex
When the thread started it was hoped that if enough razors were listed the info would give clues as to whether the E, F ,G and H series ran concurrently or that the serial numbers may give clues to the age of the razor . The country where the razors where found along with the type of cases they came in might also to help date the razors or give clues as to the meanings of the serial number prefixes. The placement of the Patent and serial information on the razors may offer insights into these unknowns. Curious of what the poster may think since his spreadsheet is more extensive than the Wiki and he seems quite knowledgeable about the Brit razors . I'm always interested in learning about these early Gillettes, I've read this thread a few times and there still seems to be some uncertainty as to some of these questions.
Glenn
Glen, I have done extensive research along with many other B&b members in last few years. Many of these questions may never be answered due to the unreliable and undocumented information from many Gillette affiliates . Gillette was a worldwide company that had many factories and affiliates that may at times not follow gillettes protocals and procedures and this is a main issue that is obstructing many research situations.
The best we can do is theorize or speculate on many unexplained mystries that we encounter as we buy or discover vintage gillette shaving gear through the years. i loved doing research in last 9 years as B&B member.
Recently i have been busy growing my 2 companies. However, soon i will have more time to comeback and do more extensive research as i did in the past. I loved looking in history and figuring things out. I will try to update and or fix the Wiki that seems to have been ineffective due to technique issues. Hopefuuly all can be restored to proper order.
R
romsitsa
Hello,
the spreadsheet is only more convenient to use as it can be easily rearanged by columns, for eg.
As for a theory, I have none as the sample size is too small.
My guess would be that Gillette exported razors to England with US (and Canadian) serials but British patent informations, then they changed to E-F serials around 1909 (or these were the first British razors), then the British factory was opened.
A further guess is that the six digit E-F series with Pat.Nov. N stamps are made after Leicester closed down, around 1917.
Adam
the spreadsheet is only more convenient to use as it can be easily rearanged by columns, for eg.
As for a theory, I have none as the sample size is too small.
My guess would be that Gillette exported razors to England with US (and Canadian) serials but British patent informations, then they changed to E-F serials around 1909 (or these were the first British razors), then the British factory was opened.
A further guess is that the six digit E-F series with Pat.Nov. N stamps are made after Leicester closed down, around 1917.
Adam
And now for my spin on this subject....
All that we know for fact is that Gillette razors made in or for England possess three variations of their patent date. These are, in an assumed chronological order:
PAT.NOV.15.04N
This is Gillette's American patent number, followed with an "N", which is assumed to designate England. It appears that all of these razors have serial numbers which commence with an "E". It is unknown if all or any were produced in England, or were manufactured in the United States for Gillette's British factory.
BR.PAT.NO.28763 of 02
- OR -
BR.PAT.NO.28763.02
Razors with both versions of the British patent number have serial numbers which commence with "E", "F", "G", and "H".... however, there have been exceptions found. It is unknown, for fact, if any of these razors were manufactured in the United States or Canada, for England. The alpha-numeric serial numbering of the American made razors did not use these letters until 1917 and 1918, after the Leicester factory had already closed."
The location of the British razor's serial number, patent markings, and Gillette logos evolved over time, and they did so concurrently on all "E", "F", "G", and "H" series razors. As a result, it is commonly assumed that all four initial alphabetical prefixed serial numbers were manufactured at the same time, and as a result, do not run in a consecutive order, as do the American razors.
Less common theories, but, non-the-less believed by many collectors are two other theories about British razor numbering: The first, is that the numbers do run consecutively, and that the letter designation specifies which production line the razor was manufactured on. The second theory is that the letter designates the destination of the razor, "E" for England, "F" for France, "G" for Germany, "H" for other countries.
Ergo~
We know little more than we did at the start of this thread, or of these charts, and unless actual records come forth, all we know is based on unsubstantiated assumption.... One theory is as good as another.
Cheers,
Kevin
All that we know for fact is that Gillette razors made in or for England possess three variations of their patent date. These are, in an assumed chronological order:
PAT.NOV.15.04N
This is Gillette's American patent number, followed with an "N", which is assumed to designate England. It appears that all of these razors have serial numbers which commence with an "E". It is unknown if all or any were produced in England, or were manufactured in the United States for Gillette's British factory.
BR.PAT.NO.28763 of 02
- OR -
BR.PAT.NO.28763.02
Razors with both versions of the British patent number have serial numbers which commence with "E", "F", "G", and "H".... however, there have been exceptions found. It is unknown, for fact, if any of these razors were manufactured in the United States or Canada, for England. The alpha-numeric serial numbering of the American made razors did not use these letters until 1917 and 1918, after the Leicester factory had already closed."
The location of the British razor's serial number, patent markings, and Gillette logos evolved over time, and they did so concurrently on all "E", "F", "G", and "H" series razors. As a result, it is commonly assumed that all four initial alphabetical prefixed serial numbers were manufactured at the same time, and as a result, do not run in a consecutive order, as do the American razors.
Less common theories, but, non-the-less believed by many collectors are two other theories about British razor numbering: The first, is that the numbers do run consecutively, and that the letter designation specifies which production line the razor was manufactured on. The second theory is that the letter designates the destination of the razor, "E" for England, "F" for France, "G" for Germany, "H" for other countries.
Ergo~
We know little more than we did at the start of this thread, or of these charts, and unless actual records come forth, all we know is based on unsubstantiated assumption.... One theory is as good as another.
Cheers,
Kevin
R
romsitsa
Hello Kevin,
two minor additions, G is exclusive to pocket editions, not counting early golden Single rings, and Pat. Nov. N markings should have came later than Brit.Pat. as there were US A and B series razors with with Brit.Pat. stamps.
Adam
two minor additions, G is exclusive to pocket editions, not counting early golden Single rings, and Pat. Nov. N markings should have came later than Brit.Pat. as there were US A and B series razors with with Brit.Pat. stamps.
Adam
Adam ~
While I must admit that I have only seen "G" series serial numbers used in Pocket Edition sets, I can thus far agree with you.
However, in reference to the PAT.NOV.15.04N patent date, there is no substantial proof one way or another. It remains only a personal opinion. There simply is not enough data to support any assumption.
Cheers,
Kevin
While I must admit that I have only seen "G" series serial numbers used in Pocket Edition sets, I can thus far agree with you.
However, in reference to the PAT.NOV.15.04N patent date, there is no substantial proof one way or another. It remains only a personal opinion. There simply is not enough data to support any assumption.
Cheers,
Kevin
R
romsitsa
Hello Kevin,
imho there is a pattern.
Brit. Pat. can be found on A and B serials
Brit Pat. was used with early leading zero E and F serials
Pat. Nov N can be seen on early E serials without a leading zero
Pat. Nov. N and also Brit. Pat. can be found on high (six digit) E serials
Pat. Nov. N can be found on all high (six digit) F serials
Adam
imho there is a pattern.
Brit. Pat. can be found on A and B serials
Brit Pat. was used with early leading zero E and F serials
Pat. Nov N can be seen on early E serials without a leading zero
Pat. Nov. N and also Brit. Pat. can be found on high (six digit) E serials
Pat. Nov. N can be found on all high (six digit) F serials
Adam
Adam ~
How many razors have been sampled to form this pattern?
A small quantity here and there is not enough data to serve as a proper basis of fact.
You mentioned the Dragonmaster Single Ring Razor, Serial No. E92026.
This is a five digit E number (albeit with a space); but moreover, it is original to it's seal skin case. Seal skin cases were discontinued in mid-1914....
If the 'E' serial number, of the 'N' patent date, represents the American 1918 date, this cannot
be correct. It is equally logical to ASSUME that the 'N' patent dates were made earlier as a
supplemental supply of razors, until the British plant was in full production. As I pointed out
previously, the 'E', 'F', 'G', and 'H' may have totally other meanings.... We most likely will never
have an actual fact, only assumptions....
Cheers,
Kevin
How many razors have been sampled to form this pattern?
A small quantity here and there is not enough data to serve as a proper basis of fact.
You mentioned the Dragonmaster Single Ring Razor, Serial No. E92026.
This is a five digit E number (albeit with a space); but moreover, it is original to it's seal skin case. Seal skin cases were discontinued in mid-1914....
If the 'E' serial number, of the 'N' patent date, represents the American 1918 date, this cannot
be correct. It is equally logical to ASSUME that the 'N' patent dates were made earlier as a
supplemental supply of razors, until the British plant was in full production. As I pointed out
previously, the 'E', 'F', 'G', and 'H' may have totally other meanings.... We most likely will never
have an actual fact, only assumptions....
Cheers,
Kevin
Thanks guys for your research and insights , great thread .
Glenn
Glenn
I concur.
R
romsitsa
Hello Kevin,
E and F was used from 1909 both with British and US patents. Dragonmasters razor is an early example, my guess is from around 1909-10, as it has the serial on the comb, iirc.
Unluckily it's impossible to determine wether high serial Pat.Nov. N razors are from the leading zero or from the no leading zero series, life would be so much easier.
Adam
E and F was used from 1909 both with British and US patents. Dragonmasters razor is an early example, my guess is from around 1909-10, as it has the serial on the comb, iirc.
Unluckily it's impossible to determine wether high serial Pat.Nov. N razors are from the leading zero or from the no leading zero series, life would be so much easier.
Adam
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