Blade Chatter: What Is It and Is it Real?

[Lane101]

Hi, I'm curious to learn more about blade chatter given that the phrase is used to define two different things and I've been unable to find any stats or research measuring and confirming what it is.

Let's start with the two definitions as follows:

• A blade that sticks and then skips along your face when shaving. Possible for both DE and SE razors though most commonly mentioned as an issue for SE razors, especially when shaving against the grain (ATG) where this can cause a nasty cut. I've seen lots of mention of this definition both in recent on-line materials in shaving "how-to" documents that go back over 100 years.
• A blade that flexes during the shave. Have seen even more posts referencing this from many sources including B&B members that related it to shaving noise level to marketing materials for various razors touting superior blade clamping. I've even seen a patent that reference reduced blade chatter though it provides no proof or statistics.

My view is that the first definition is a very real issue, especially with SE razors. Regarding the second definition I'm curious if anyone has seen any research, videos or statistics that actually confirm that blade flexing is an issue. I searched and couldn't find anything. Within B&B there is come controversy with different views ranging from "I never heard of razor chatter. I have 30 or sold vintage razors...." to "most vintage razors I tried had some sort of chatter.....designed for thicker blades...." with most, back in 2015, not thinking this was a real thing (see link to old thread below). My razors include both a 3 piece and TTO models and I've never experienced any issues with blade flex so long as I tighten the razor blade mechanisms as designed.

Since 2015 lots of razor manufacturers have touted superior clamping in their designs to reduce blade chatter. There are many posts of fellow B&Bers shimming blades to increase rigidity, etc (see link to 2021 thread below). What I've seen is typically based on anecdotal evidence or personal perception. Interestingly shaving system manufacturers, per their research, have designed cartridges with each of the multiple blades on small springs to make them more flexible so as to better align with skin/face geometry. One has to wonder if manufacturer marketing combined with self reinforcing social media comments/hype has created an impression that the second type of blade chatter (blade flexing/cutting stability) is a real issue when it really is not one?

What is your view and has anyone seen any research on the topic of blade flexing? I'm just not sure it's a real issue for the vast majority of our DE razors out there.


2015 thread on blade chatter:

A list for razors without blade chatter

Or in other words, razors that hold blade most rigidly. Lets see if we can make a list for reference. I have tried two of these razors and for me they always gave irritation free and smoothest shave. I would personally only use such razors since they get the job done most comfortably. Merkur...

www.badgerandblade.com

2021 Thread on Blade Rigidity:

The Importance of a Rigid Blade (or not)

There have been many discussions professing the advantages of razors with designs that ensure a rigid blade. I have a few of these, e.g. Blackland Dart, Fatip FOCS and AC style single edge razors. All of these are favorites of mine. But then so are my Muhle Rocca and Yaqi double open comb...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[Jay21]

I didn’t know what chatter was until I used a RazoRock MJ-90A at a steep angle over the coarsest part of my beard. That thing basically sung the Star Spangled Banner.

 

[EclipseRedRing]

I have had several razors which were noisy in use and you could loudly hear the hairs being cut. I assume that may be caused by the blade not being fully clamped and if that is blade chatter then it did not bother me, in fact I quite enjoyed the audible feedback, and I got a perfectly good shave. Obviously a very loosly clamped blade would be dangerous but otherwise I suspect 'blade chatter' is another one of those things that some people obsess about while to others it is of no import whatsoever, I am in the latter group.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I get the impression that most of the time when people are talking about blade chatter they're specifically referring to how much the blade actually flexes at the edge (whether this is due to the razor's design, or suboptimal shaving angles, or both). Obviously audible feedback is related to that, but the level of noisiness is also related to the mass of the razor as well as where and how much of the blade is clamped.

 

[wetshaver233]

It's no secret that DE blades are very thin and can warp very easy. Some razors tend to hold the blades more tightly, especially around the edge and that reduces or removes the blade warping.

The thing with blade chatter is that it doesn't affect everyone the same way and while some folks don't mind it or even feel it, others can't stand even the smallest amount of blade chatter.

Because of that reason, some folks just moved to SE razors and never looked back. Since SE blades are much thicker, blade chatter is virtually impossible.

 

[md1234]

I can definitely notice a difference when using a DE89 at a steep angle pulls and skips over my hairs and I get wheepers or ingrowns not to mention razor burn. Even using it shallower, it is still a poor performer for me. This doesn't happen with a razor that clamps the blade close to the edge IME

 

[nemo]

It doesn't bother me and I've used razors that members say don't clamp well. I'm not sure if it really is a thing or not.
I think with good prep, technique, and a quality blade we're fine. (Are You Experienced?)
I do use torsion slants a lot but also plenty of vintage Gillette TTO razors from the 40s and 50s without issues.

Was there blade chatter before the internet?

 

[Tirvine]

Nothing describes a phenomenon better than experiencing it. To experience blade chatter, load your favorite blade into your favorite razor. Screw it down tight. Now loosen it a couple of turns and shave.

Did you follow my instructions? Sorry. You got fooled.

 

[Lane101]

I can definitely notice a difference when using a DE89 at a steep angle pulls and skips over my hairs and I get wheepers or ingrowns not to mention razor burn. Even using it shallower, it is still a poor performer for me. This doesn't happen with a razor that clamps the blade close to the edge IME

Makes sense as at a steep angle there is more scraping vs. cutting. What you are describing is the first definition of chatter where the blade is skipping across your face and scraping your skin instead of cutting whiskers. That is absolutely a real issue that some experience.

Is your razor that clamps the blade closer to the edge also milder than the DE89? From others posts the DE89 appears to be an average aggressiveness razor.

Curious is it's primarily use of a milder razor that is reducing the weepers and irritation.

 

[Jay21]

I can definitely notice a difference when using a DE89 at a steep angle pulls and skips over my hairs and I get wheepers or ingrowns not to mention razor burn. Even using it shallower, it is still a poor performer for me. This doesn't happen with a razor that clamps the blade close to the edge IME

The cantilever design is very prone to chatter for sure.

 

[Lane101]

Nothing describes a phenomenon better than experiencing it. To experience blade chatter, load you favorite blade into you favorite razor. Screw it down tight. Now loosen it a couple of turns and shave.

As noted in my original post the question is if this is a real issue when one's razor is tightened as designed. Of course if you don't tighten it as designed the blade is going to move around. Loosen it two turns and you will get worse than chatter, likely some stitches to repair the damage.

 

[wetshaver233]

This is getting more interesting than I thought! I hope more folks join and share their opinions, experiences and wisdoms so we can finally get to the bottom of this relatively new phenomenon called "blade chatter".

 

[md1234]

Makes sense as at a steep angle there is more scraping vs. cutting. What you are describing is the first definition of chatter where the blade is skipping across your face and scraping your skin instead of cutting whiskers. That is absolutely a real issue that some experience.

Is your razor that clamps the blade closer to the edge also milder than the DE89? From others posts the DE89 appears to be an average aggressiveness razor.

Curious is it's primarily use of a milder razor that is reducing the weepers and irritation.

I use vintage Gillette's mostly, I like the Tech and Super Speed's the best. Even though they are milder than the Jagger, it takes me less work with the Gillette's. I used the DE89 for almost a year so I don't think it was a technique issue either.

 

[Lane101]

I have had several razors which were noisy in use and you could loudly hear the hairs being cut. I assume that may be caused by the blade not being fully clamped and if that is blade chatter then it did not bother me, in fact I quite enjoyed the audible feedback, and I got a perfectly good shave. Obviously a very loosly clamped blade would be dangerous but otherwise I suspect 'blade chatter' is another one of those things that some people obsess about while to others it is of no import whatsoever, I am in the latter group.

You are right, this could be a YMMV thing. It is an interesting topic because there are, based on some research, lots of opinions though no real measured evidence. The noise is real, almost all of us can hear it to some extent. Still an open question as to what it is. In some years earlier threads here there were some posts noting that it was from the blade resonating when it cut hair. Some evidence to support this from SE blade users comparing solid to hollow blade razors. This is not the chatter from a loose blade jumping around, just vibration going through the metal.

That said this could also be the sound of our hairs splitting or tearing. Some posts not how the noise changes if the blade angle is adjusted with the shaving noise at the lowest level with the ideal angle. This could make sense, too steep an angle and you are tearing each hair along it's side until you rip it apart. With the ideal angle there is a nice clean cut.

I personally don't notice any appreciable difference in shaving noise between my three very different razors. Have you noticed a difference between your razors and if so is there a pattern based on how each one clamp your razor blades? Anyone else with a perspective on this please chime in.

 

[Joezamboni]

I was a nay sayer, and I think chatter is a bit excessive to describe it from my experience as it references to enough play existing to cause the razor not to function properly. I’ll use my experience with Above the Tie. They redesigned their top cap where the edge is closer to the blade. I have a vintage M head and the newer M and R plates/topcap With the redesign.

The old style has a very nice audible feedback. I actually prefer using it compared to the new version but size and weight are the main complaints with the new style. The new one feels a smidge smoother, however in use the feedback seems to help “guide” me to a more precise shaving angle.

Taking note of the mention of the DE89 I own one and plan to sell it. I forget why but it didn't impress me and I don’t think it’s worth trying as an experiment again. I might due to this thread but it may be a couple of weeks.

The Ikon B1 slant was nothing but loud feedback and many commented on it when new, but it’s pretty smooth. My wife could be in the bathroom with my and hear it.

Overall I haven‘t found a combination where I could pinpoint enough blade movement existing to call it more than feedback. I question things like blade choices (too dull) or prep when the topic comes up. Generally, all things being equal when I experiment, if my shave isn't smooth changing the razor isn’t going to fix anything.

 

[HellGuapo]

FWIW my most chattery shaver is an ever ready streamline. Not that it’s bad, but for such a thick blade, you’d expect it to be rigid. YMMV. It still gives an excellent shave, if that’s what you’re after

 

[coops]

Henson used to have a video showing the difference between a cartidge razor and their de razor shaving a playing card edge - can't find that one, but here's another shwoing the difference between a Henson and another DE razor with less blade support (I do have a Henson, but have been using only my Tatara Masamune for years now, which also clamps the blade very securely)

 

[Iridian]

In general tight clamping is a better design. Still, it is not the end all of razor design. Some audible feedback can be helpful and even attractive.

After several dozens of different razors I am still surprised which ones turn out well and which fail to impress.

Also be wary of razor companies making design and precision claims. The proof isn't in the pudding but your face after the shave.

 

[gdawg55]

I can definitely notice a difference when using a DE89 at a steep angle pulls and skips over my hairs and I get wheepers or ingrowns not to mention razor burn. Even using it shallower, it is still a poor performer for me. This doesn't happen with a razor that clamps the blade close to the edge IME

I never got along well with that razor either.

 

[Tirvine]

My suspicion is that feedback level varies widely. A razor with a lot of blade exposure and gap, loaded with a very thin blade, would, it seems, provide a lot of feedback, and a razor with no real exposure and a very small gap, loaded with a stiff blade would likely provide less feedback. To a person changing from the latter to the former, the feedback change might be so extreme as to be perceived as chatter, and nicks from the greater aggressiveness might be mistaken for evidence that chatter was occurring, an edge bouncing around and shaving unpredictably. No amount of tightening will mask the difference, and the mind behind the bleeding face will naturally look for an excuse for butchering themself. The actual chatter will occur when he gets to the office with bits of tissue still stuck here and there.