My first wonky bevel.. Need advice

[5whiskey]

I have a friend who obtained a Russian SR warped even worse. He got it to shave but the edge bevel was obviously uneven. I was not yet into SRs and honing at the time but I could instantly and obviously tell that blade was warped when he finished.

 

[Squancher79]

I have not yet in over 17 years of honing razors EVER created a frown. I have fixed MANY.
Unless the warp is horrific it can be fixed.

Thank my stars I've never sent an old warped fine shaving French razor to you, it would return 'perfect' but missing a lot of metal and as such in my opinion never shave quite as well.

But we can all agree to civilly disagree.

Personally I will leave warp alone if the only ways to remove it all involve steel removal which in my opinion is not ideal. I have many vintage French blades with wonky bevels that all shave great.

 

[stone and strop]

Thank my stars I've never sent an old warped fine shaving French razor to you, it would return 'perfect' but missing a lot of metal and as such in my opinion never shave quite as well.

But we can all agree to civilly disagree.

Personally I will leave warp alone if the only ways to remove it all involve steel removal which in my opinion is not ideal. I have many vintage French blades with wonky bevels that all shave great.

If you are leaving the warp alone how are you honing this?
Don't say rolling X because you still have to remove steel at the ends to make the concave side work.
So, tell us what you would do instead of offering no advise whatsoever other than leave it and yours shave fine.

You are clearly missing the point of this.
Firstly, your fixed razor would shave fantastically - why wouldn't it?

The warp described initially is not large and not a lot of steel needs to be removed.
I have seen razors with nasty hone wear smoothed out after fixing to the point where the wear could not be detected. Its how far you want to go.

I have ALWAYS mentioned to customers that if the razor has a slight warp - these are the options...
Something like above can be corrected with very little noticeable hone wear and it will hone normally for its life - This is an issue for you?
Good, you keep screwing around with tweaking this then that every time you hone and I will give people options.

Handing someone back a razor that they could never possibly be able to hone themselves is not doing that person any favors at all.
I would normally recommend returning it or fixing it if it was not bad as above so that it could be maintained by the owner.
I would never just do something like that without informing the customer from the get go, that's what professionals do, give the options available - not offer no advice or try to help in any way.

The simple fact that others are touting "just do a rolling X" makes me roll my eyes.
This will NOT WORK on the concave side. Someone that is new to honing will have a hard enough time with a straight, flat razor, never mind a warped one.
When honing with a rolling X on the concave side, steel from the spine still has to be removed at the ends till you get contact at the center. There are no two ways about it, steel must be removed whether you think so or not.
The other side will see a bevel in the center faster, that's it.
This is NOT helping someone.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Generally the use of a hone less than 3" wide is the workaround for difficulty contacting blade center on a warped razor. With unmounted 3" wide hones you can use the side of the hone. With mounted 3" wide hones you can use the corner.

The convex hones that Jarrod produces now would likely resolve the problem as well, but I haven't used them personally.


Honestly, honing a warped blade isn't much harder than honing a straight blade on a stone; though I could see film being more difficult if you weren't willing to experiment (though film would actually be even easier if you were willing to try mounting options other than a piece of tile or glass. I wonder if mass produced drinking glasses have a sufficiently level surface for honing on...) Generally a warp starts to impact the shave long before it becomes a nightmare to hone*... unless you are trying to fix the warp. Just honing around it isn't too difficult. Removing material to correct it on heavier grinds can be quite a bear, though.


*and warps that severe are extremely rare

 

[stone and strop]

Absolutely, a convex hone will work as would a very narrow one, provided you have the full gamut in narrow hones or convexed ones. You can't have just one unless you are very well versed.
Realistically someone new would have synthetics in the normal range of widths, no special hones or knowledge of using them. So rolling would not be an option that brought any solution.
I think everyone thinks this razor has a large swept spine. Look at the first photo. Its nearly straight even when presented at that angle.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I think film is probably the most common starter hones these days, and that seems to me as extremely versatile in creating a narrow or convex surface. A blow-molded piece of glass should be suitable to hone on as well, and can be bought for $1. Of course care will need to be taken that they don't shatter the glass in use since it won't be directly backed like a pane of glass would be.

 

[Squancher79]

stonestrop, I use a pasted strop series for French razors just as they do in the factories for years.

Convex hones obviously also solve this problem neatly but let us keep them as a taboo in this forum, this will ensure peace of gentleman. A series of pasted strops starting with 6µ level down to the finest ferric oxide you can acquire has always worked tremendously on French razors.

If you remove 1/32" of steel just to straighten out the object which wasn't straight itself, you have for me thrown away valued steel. The thinner the razor and longer the zone of maximum thinness, the better, leave that steel in place and I'll try to move it around as best I can rather than to sweep it away.

A French factory, if you sent them for honing, I simply cannot imagine removing this from the razor.

 

[stone and strop]

the better, leave that steel in place and I'll try to move it around as best I can rather than to sweep it away.

Please enlighten everyone.
How do you "move it around". You cannot move steel with paste - you can either remove or leave.

What you do is move the razor around to get the desired effect.
You are also in the very small minority that would use pastes to hone through progression and finish on.
I don't really consider pasted strop "honing"

Where do I go from here to get the bevel set properly?

Your suggestion is to use paste to set the bevel? or just buy a specialty stone for hundreds of dollars for the one warped razor?
These are not viable options for the majority starting out.

 

[Squancher79]

Well, the French producers of the razors have always considered it a form of honing, and you can read on the French forums how long they go with only the paste.

Some methods of sharpening remove more steel than others in achieving the same result, this is what I mean. Have you ever used a "LVRR" coticule? It doesn't leave much slurry and yet it reshapes the cutting edge VERY fast, or at least my sandy textured bout does. Where did the steel go, if it left? Can it be that it is bending the steel and reshaping it without breaking it off? I do not know the answer, but I cannot see any steel in my water, and yet the edge reshapes to proper form, with tremendous speed no less. Pity their unpleasant gravelly feedback, but they are certainly quite special whetstones which I will use when trying to minimize wear.

 

[stone and strop]

Well, the French producers of the razors have always considered it a form of honing, and you can read on the French forums how long they go with only the paste.

They go a long time refreshing the edge on pastes. I really don't believe anyone is setting bevels on them.

It doesn't leave much slurry and yet it reshapes the cutting edge VERY fast, or at least my sandy textured bout does. Where did the steel go, if it left? Can it be that it is bending the steel and reshaping it without breaking it off? I do not know the answer,

I think you mean it doesn't leave any swarf. Slurry has nothing to do with it.
Bending? Reshaping without breaking it off? Are you serious?
And you are grateful to not have to send razors to me?
Priceless!!

 

[Squancher79]

Yes, you are correct, I meant swarf [the metal removed from the razor]. I believe that some methods sharpening be they pastes or odd whetstones like the LVRR are extruding the tempered steel in addition to removing steel, much like how one could hammer thinner a paper clip's end. Each action, extrusion and removal, will occur in some cases - how else can you explain to me that a LVRR sets a bevel with alarming speed and you don't have a spec of swarf to observe?

While I cannot say it involves straight razors or 1.2210 steel, my professional background does include some very intense metallurgical study - does yours, or are you just yet another self-taught honer-for-hire? I have watched this forum a long time and you are not on for long. Straight razors' edges are not at all stiff, they are flexible by intention, to the limits that the steel will allow.

It is quite easy to reset a bevel on a slack French paddle strop and the 6µ pastes. Not all successful methodologies are recorded on internet shaving forums and some of them were used for years and forgotten.

 

[stone and strop]

You are correct. I have only been here a few years but I come from another forum prior.
I have been honing razors for over 17 years.
Most of my razors now were salvaged from an early death, I enjoy the vintage items. It also taught me a lot about honing.
I am indeed self taught for the most part as is everybody here. There is no razor honing school to my knowledge.
My Barber got me started with honing and stropping many years ago.
I have been around enough to try damn near every honing medium there is over the years and see what each has to offer.
I don't claim to be the master of anything, but I do know what is happening to the steel I am honing and if you truly have anything to do with metallurgy you would know too!

There is another member here that I know personally that has used a straight for over 50 years, his background in metallurgy as well. Till just a few years ago he only used barber hones and a hone from his father and suffered with the edges he got, he never knew better or was shown.
He now uses synthetics and finishes with pastes.
Time at something doesn't really mean anything. Experimenting and learning is what matters.

I once seen another tradesman on a site explaining how to do something and telling the other guy "I have been doing this for 40 years"
What he didn't know was that he was doing it incorrectly for 40 years. I knew the correct way and he was far from it.

Your answers do not indicate that you have much experience with anything other than your own few razors and how to maintain them.

When the OP was asking for help for this specific problem you offered nothing but rather make an off handed comment to me and when pushed - use pastes or a convex hone is your solution.

This is not a solution, I would say to set bevels with pastes is actually a bad idea and don't think that anyone but yourself would suggest such a thing.

Sadly, we are departing from the question at hand.

 

[Squancher79]

There is a razor honing school, sir - in the trades practiced in Germany and France where they still undergo formal training as apprentices, and it takes years plural to even work on finished product which will touch a customer's hands a full decade before mastering. I would wonder what they would say.

Your tradesman example was not in a formal apprenticeship as described above.

Back to topic, what I am saying to the OP and any other possessing a nice warped old French blade; interact with as little of the bevel plane width as possible at all times, which a nice and puffy French strop does very well. So does a convex hone. You'll end up with a WIDER razor than the 'fixed' razor stone&strop offers, and wider as we all know is better. all things equal and if speaking of two pieces of the same model razor as example.

 

[stone and strop]

There is a razor honing school, sir - in the trades practiced in Germany and France where they still undergo formal training as apprentices, and it takes years plural to even work on finished product which will touch a customer's hands a full decade before mastering.

Please enclose a link to this school.
Apprentice? As in, a razor honer is a certified trade?
I would LOVE to see a certificate of a tradesman possessing this qualification.
Please, post a photo. I will wait.


Is information getting past along within the organization? Sure. Just like it was past to me by my Barber who is a certified tradesman in Barbering from the late 50's.

My story above is tradesman related as I am a certified tradesman where clearly the other man was not.

 

[Toro Blanco]

This is getting good! Lol!

 

[global_dev]

This is getting good! Lol!

these args are why we cant have nice things.

 

[Squancher79]

That's not how it works, (self taught) stonestrop; in Germany, they have many formal guilds such as cuckoo clock making, brush making, razor grinder, etc. Generally either the old companies will approach people in high school, or the inverse, and agreement is made to take on the apprentice for 2 years in exchange for some guaranteed time as their functioning employee. The kid gets education they can use for a lifetime and the company hopes they get a terrific long term producer. So it isn't like a HVAC or welder's school as in the USA, but it is strictly regulated internally to the guild members in the tests you must pass under which you present your skills to the masters under which you apprentice and they agree to certify you've achieved that particular facet of the profession. When you have passed all the tests and begin working true you do indeed get a certification, but this isn't a school and you can't buy your way in.

You must agree to servitude as paid employee for a prior agreed quantity of time, in exchange the company is paying for your learning because you are costing them time without producing finished product (yet). After you've done your time, you are free to work for yourself or another or as a freelancer in the trade, conditional to for example that your work must occur within specific geographical boundaries defined by the trade.

I do not believe, but do not know with certainty, that these guild grinders would ever agree to do to a razor with mild warp as you espouse. Otherwise, I would not own a beautiful and ever slightly warped mid-90s Wacker which looks as it does, it'd have come from the factory with your 'solution'. But let's play this the other way, as these folks don't much concern themselves with what the self taught experts outside of their regulated profession say is or is not the right way - *you* find me any razor grinder in Germany who would assign their name to your solution. I'll wait.

Actually I do know one guy at work who's a native German and from the NW Rhine state, I'll ask him tomorrow if he thinks he could ask somebody from home if they can find such a picture to assuage your concerns of your unquestionable formal expertise. I believe there is a grinding museum in Solingen and you can see such certification there, but they call it master grinder, encompassing razors, scissors, cutlery (no doubt these folks love the term "honemeister").

 

[global_dev]

I find the factual conversation interesting, the attacks less so

I quickly found two references to cutler certifications.

hoppe @ HOPPESCHLIFF - HOPPESCHLIFF - https://www.hoppeschliff.com/company/hoppeschliff/


1956
Horst Hugo Hoppe – Hugo III. – passes the master craftsman's examination to become a cutler.

and

Victorinox @ The last cutler | Victorinox Swiss Army (USA) - https://www.swissarmy.com/us/en/Victorinox/Inspiration/The-last-cutler/cms/the-last-cutler
From apprentice to master
A trained cutler knows exactly how to hone a blade at the necessary 17 degrees to make a blade razor-sharp. It takes months, even years, before you can feel the correct angle in your fingers. René remembers how he had to hone scissors at Victorinox for almost an entire year. „“Sure. It was difficult, but that’s what it takes. And that’s the only way to get better and better,” he says. This is why it’s so important for a craftsman to have a passion to learn, but also plenty of patience.
It’s the desire to learn something new and well that enables them to withstand the many days at the grinding and polishing machines. Sometimes a little pressure helps as well. René remembers a slump he had during his apprenticeship. „“One time, I had really bad grades. I was immediately called in to see the boss.”“ And by this, he doesn’t just mean his line manager, but the CEO of Victorinox himself. Elsener knew how important the next generation was for his company, which was 500 people strong at the time. That was why he monitored the grades of all of his protégés. „“I was sentenced to extra work at the grinding machine,” grins René. But of course he knows how important this time was. It’s no coincidence that he passed his apprenticeship exam with flying colors in 1970.

The preservation of a species
Today in Switzerland there are still between 20 and 30 federally certified cutlers, both men and women. But what was once a highly esteemed profession is now in danger of extinction. At Victorinox, it will also be important in the future for the company to have good generalists, individuals with comprehensive knowledge who have an understanding of the larger picture. „“For precisely this reason, we are going to start training a new cutler this year,” says Toni Blaser, who is responsible for apprenticeship training.

 

[stone and strop]

That's not how it works, (self taught) stonestrop; in Germany, they have many formal guilds such as cuckoo clock making, brush making, razor grinder, etc. Generally either the old companies will approach people in high school, or the inverse, and agreement is made to take on the apprentice for 2 years in exchange for some guaranteed time as their functioning employee. The kid gets education they can use for a lifetime and the company hopes they get a terrific long term producer. So it isn't like a HVAC or welder's school as in the USA, but it is strictly regulated internally to the guild members in the tests you must pass under which you present your skills to the masters under which you apprentice and they agree to certify you've achieved that particular facet of the profession. When you have passed all the tests and begin working true you do indeed get a certification, but this isn't a school and you can't buy your way in.

You must agree to servitude as paid employee for a prior agreed quantity of time, in exchange the company is paying for your learning because you are costing them time without producing finished product (yet). After you've done your time, you are free to work for yourself or another or as a freelancer in the trade, conditional to for example that your work must occur within specific geographical boundaries defined by the trade.

I do not believe, but do not know with certainty, that these guild grinders would ever agree to do to a razor with mild warp as you espouse. Otherwise, I would not own a beautiful and ever slightly warped mid-90s Wacker which looks as it does, it'd have come from the factory with your 'solution'. But let's play this the other way, as these folks don't much concern themselves with what the self taught experts outside of their regulated profession say is or is not the right way - *you* find me any razor grinder in Germany who would assign their name to your solution. I'll wait.

Actually I do know one guy at work who's a native German and from the NW Rhine state, I'll ask him tomorrow if he thinks he could ask somebody from home if they can find such a picture to assuage your concerns of your unquestionable formal expertise. I believe there is a grinding museum in Solingen and you can see such certification there, but they call it master grinder, encompassing razors, scissors, cutlery (no doubt these folks love the term "honemeister").

Ok Jarrod.

 

[Squancher79]

Yes, someone else already said this line, the world is a bigger place than you realise I am afraid and occasionally people can just agree, I did not use the taboo word here because it isn't relevant to the OP he can in my opinion use his standard stone just fine, he just has to use corners of it and the like or simulate a very narrow hone on the side you called "concave" above. You're beginning to remind ME of that g guy, so "ok g" I say to you.

Hope you can understand German because I'm sure the certificates only such but let's see what he comes up with.