My first wonky bevel.. Need advice

[duderdo]

I've honed dozens or razors but pretty much stick to Japan where they apparently have tight QA so I've never had a problem with setting a bevel.

I got this "Chabrol a Paris" a long time ago and it looks like I tried to hone it but gave up. It rocks slightly and you can see where it isn't even hitting the edge:

I've thought about sending it away because it needs new scales anyways but not sure if it's even worth it. I do like the blade though. It feels nimble despite being a near wedge.

Where do I go from here to get the bevel set properly?

 

[SliceOfLife]

The French never much took the word "straight" in straight razors too seriously. They love their artsy fartsy curves.

I just hone them with a rolling motion from bevel set to finish. Kind of free-hand honing but perpendicular to the hone on the earth plane rather than perpendicular to the hone and the earth plane.

 

[stone and strop]

Yep, she's wonky!
Keep at it.
More pressure on the front half of the front of the razor and pressure at the back half on the back.
The hone wear on the back (spine) changes drastically near the shoulder. More needs to be removed from the fattest part to the shoulder.
The front side with more removal at the toe end (spine).

 

[HVenture138]

Rolling x-stroke indeed. Narrow hones also have some utility with such blades as do pasted strops. Also convex hones are supposed to be great with warped blades but I can’t say from experience.

 

[duderdo]

Thanks guys... Never even tried a rolling x stroke but I've heard of it so I'll give it a shot.

Might just send it away to a professional if I can't get it done myself

 

[RumpleBearskin]

Rolling X is the way to go.

The other alternative (which it appears you may have started) is to hone it flat to "correct" the geometry. That will likely result in a lot of hone wear on the spine. I wouldn't recommend it, but it will work to get you to a place where you have a good, if "unsightly", edge. But then, "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder...

 

[duderdo]

Rolling X is the way to go.

The other alternative (which it appears you may have started) is to hone it flat to "correct" the geometry. That will likely result in a lot of hone wear on the spine. I wouldn't recommend it, but it will work to get you to a place where you have a good, if "unsightly", edge. But then, "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder...

Yeah I guess I had but clearly I didn't correct the rocking spine. I saw a video where Dr Matt tapes the edge and then flattens the spine first, and then sets the bevel. Takes off a fair amount of steel but if I can't get a hang of rolling x-strokes I'll give it a shot

 

[bluesman 7]

It rocks slightly

A smiling blade has to rock.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I wouldn't try to straighten one of these frenchies. Look at the back of the spine. It's arched. If you straighten the bevel, the razor will be frowning.

I don't shave with french blades often (hence why this one is so clearly unhoned), but I've got this one in my collection. Here's the spine on a DMT (Flat to 0.00whatever") to demonstrate the curve.

 

[stone and strop]

A smiling blade has to rock.

I wouldn't try to straighten one of these frenchies. Look at the back of the spine. It's arched. If you straighten the bevel, the razor will be frowning.

There is no bevel at the toe on the front and next to no bevel at the heel on the back.
Click on the images and zoom.
Without acrobatics it will never get a bevel unless you straighten the spine some. Less is more - just enough to get a bevel no matter if its small.

duderdo, If you look from the tail toward the toe can you see the slight curve to the right?

 

[SliceOfLife]

There's no bevel because the previous honing were effectively "Straightening the spine".

They were doing this by grinding the smile out of a razor that was ground to have a smile. These razors don't hone flat, they just don't. If you try to hone them flat or "straighten the spine", you get this (image below).

What this razor has right now is the starts of this. "Straightening the spine" will just complete doing this to the razor.

Rolling will hone the razor properly and will actually even out the hone wear at the spine (which is what it sounds like you're saying needs done), Pressure at the heel and toe will just push the center of the blade into the hone EVEN HARDER and grind it back faster, because the razor is shaped where force applied ANYWHERE on the spine is translated primarily to the center of the edge if the razor is flat on the hone. That's just geometry and mechanics.

 

[stone and strop]

This is far from a sway back razor.
Some curve will easily hone with very little rolling.
The spine wear is abrupt, it is not a flowing curve. This tells me there is indeed a warp - despite the shape of the blade.
The wear is near even on the front half of the front side yet no bevel.
This is why I ask, if you look down it, many times you can see the curve.
Enlarge the photo!

 

[SliceOfLife]

Here's what I'm seeing:

Pressure being applied opposite to these circles during honing to try to force the bevel to expand at the thin areas (toe on one side, heel and center at the other). Because the razor is curved and yes, warped, this is not actually wearing the places pressure is being applied, but wearing the places you see a wide bevel. This is not fixing the problem, it's aggravating it. You can't fix a warp on the hone without shortening or regrinding the razor off the hone. Honing a warped straight creates a frown. That's what it does. The only way to avoid that is what you see on a lot of old barber razors, where they create a wedge-profile to the razor by honing one end (usually the toe) almost to the spine and leaving the other end fat, so the edge can be straight and the razor can be honed flat.

That's why warps are bad. You can work around the warp with a rolling X or a very narrow hone, but you can't hone a warped razor flat without effectively regrinding it and typically removing a ton of steel.

That said, this razor is not badly warped. There's a slight warp, but on that's almost always the case. The "warp" effects are most likely due to someone treating this like a warped razor, and trying to apply pressure to "fix" the initial differences in the bevel on either side due mostly to razor grind (fat center), but also partially to the warp (fat toe on one end and fat heel on the other). This is why we see that massive discrepancy in spine wear... not from a warp, but from the honing trying to "fix" it.

And honestly, that toe looks like someone even tried to tape the toe at one point. This razor has seen plenty of attempts to straighten the spine. It needs a rolling honing motion.

 

[stone and strop]

I have not yet in over 17 years of honing razors EVER created a frown. I have fixed MANY.
Unless the warp is horrific it can be fixed.
If a razor is warped and you only ever hone with the hump down (1 side) - it will create a frown.
If you only hone the other side and metal only gets removed from the ends - you get a smile.
The hump side will remove more from the center and the other side will remove more from the ends keeping it in sync.

I'm pretty sure Dr Matt has a video of fixing a warp then regular honing a razor.

 

[SliceOfLife]

You don't want the half-edge angle to vary as you move down the blade, which that technique will cause. This will mean part of the edge will shave closer than another part. Won't matter much in areas where you only use a small portion of the blade, but anytime you're cutting with more than a few mm of the blade length at once, it will impact the shave.

That's the whole reason rocking motions are used, they maintain the edge angle the length of the blade even if the spine is not consistently thick or the blade is not consistently deep. The ratio is maintained and that creates a proper-shaving edge. Your technique may maintain the overall edge angle, but not the half-edge angle, which matters. It's why a Kamisori doesn't shave the same on the both faces... because half-edge angle changes the properties of the shave.

Biased edges in severe cases are also significantly weaker than balanced ones. Single beveled edges can be much, much more fragile than double-beveled, and this isn't a binary thing, as you move closer to a single bevel by gapping the bevels on either side, the blade gets weaker. And if the tool wasn't made with that in mind (unusually hard steel like knives meant for single-bevel edges), this creates problems.

Take a standard Euro chefs knive at 18/18 or whatever it's ground at, switch it to 36/0 or even 26/10, and see how much less durable the edge is... it's a pretty massive difference.

 

[stone and strop]

The razor will still shave fine.
Again, this is not a terrible warp and the blade will stay straight.
I think its Slash McCoy who always says for warped razors - "just keep honing it" you WILL get ridiculous wear patters and it will never be a pretty razor but it will work, it will shave and it will stay straight.
The change in angle along one edge is negligible. I would guess that if any razor could be measured accurately it would be slightly different from one side to the other.

I just don't understand why people think it will only cause a frown when one side removes from the center and the other removes from the ends. It can be balanced, but it can't be pretty
A curved spine or smiley of coarse, is another story.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Because generally less of the center is in contact than the ends; so assuming pressure is even, the center will hone faster. As you mentioned, adjusting the work on each side to keep it even is possible, but this is beyond the skill of most guys who are asking for help dealing with a warp, and with significant warps creates the extreme wavy bevels that we've seen.

Also, as a more technical note, the nature of how steel warps tends to project the center edge out more and the toe and heel spine out more... which makes the edge hone back more on the center and the spine show more wear on the toe and heel, again, creating a frown. (This is if the warp centers around blade center... in this case, the warp appears closer to the heel).

Then of course there's also the natural tendency of folks to try to hurry things up, which due to the tang and stabilizers, the heel resists better than blade center... which also contributes to scooping out the center and creating a frown.

 

[stone and strop]

We will have to agree to disagree.

I think a new honer trying to master an even bevel with acrobatics because of a warp would be a disaster and they would give up before getting to the end, never mind having to repeat it each and every time.
A rolling stroke would work for the hump side but dedicated honing at specific spots are needed for the other side.

Fix it - its easier to deal with in the long run especially when learning.

 

[SliceOfLife]

We will.

To demonstrate what I meant in my second paragraph above,

Most warps aren't simply about one axis. They are complex and about two axes, and this is the most common profile of a warping razor.

This is a big part of why the center tends to suffer more when a warped razor is honed flat.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Make no mistake... it doesn't matter whether the spine is curved, or not. Flat honing it on a flat honing surface WILL eventually make the two bevel planes intersect in a straight line. This is an inescapable conclusion. Yes, the central part of the spine will then be thinner. So? It will also be closer to the edge. So, same angle. It will still be part of a plane. Two planes can only intersect in a straight line. Any curved intersection between two planes is absolutely impossible. At least in our universe.

HOWEVER... flat honing will use up an awful lot of steel, and that razor is already very narrow. With that much smile, almost any razor is IMHO best honed with a rolling x stroke. It is not so very difficult. It doesn't waste a lot of steel. It can put a perfectly acceptable edge on the razor.

HINT...
Always hone in hand. Rather than rolling the razor, roll the hone, whether it is a rock, or a plate and film. It will quickly seem very natural and you won't even have to think about it. The most common issue with rolling x honing is often, particularly with a relative newbie doing the honing, the roll is exaggerated. The toe and sometimes both toe and heel get extra love. So the smile is exaggerated even more. The razor takes on an ugly taper. In extreme cases it becomes somewhat awkward to hone, and FWIW you decimate the resale value. This is particularly true where the hone is resting on a fixed surface and you use two hands to "control" the razor. Disaster. Bench honing is fine for an old timer who has paid his dues and has years and eyars of experience. Just starting, or just starting with rolling x honing, you are much better off holding the hone lightly in your unsupported hand, the razor in your other hand. You need only be barely conscious of the roll and the need for it. As the razor sweeps across in the x stroke, the stone will quite naturally roll in your hand to a degree. You just give it a slight bias toward this end and it will happen.

I love a straight edge. However, I definitely have found that forcing a big smile into a straight edge is a monumental waste of time and razor steel. And it accomplishes little in the way of improved performance. So don't bother unless the smile is very shallow. If you prefer straight edges, buy razors with straight edges and you will be happy.