Audiophiles don't want $1 million!!!

[Baloosh]

How do you figure? He offered Fremer (sp?) two options. 1) compare Monster Cables to $7,200 cables or 2) compare Monster Cables to $84,000 cables.

Framer said, no, he wanted to use his own reference cables.

Randi said okay, pending approval from his advisers. He then said no and Fremer went ballistic (as he often does) and accuses Randi of reneging and dealing in bad faith.

Keep in mind that Randi wants a controlled comparison and allowing Framer to use his own cables removes the control.

Back in the 1970's he proved Uri Geller a fraud by removing Geller's opportunity to use his own spoons and keys to bend.

Geller was a guest on Johnny Carson, who was skeptical and called Randi for advise ahead of time. Randi told him to have his staff set up a table with spoons, keys and whatever else Geller manipulates using his "powers." Randi told Carson to make sure no one from Geller's camp touched the objects.


Not surprisingly, Geller couldn't do squat and complained that he was being put on the spot.

Randi doesn't want Fremer to use his own reference cables because Fremer could then manipulate them somehow ahead of time so he can tell the difference. Like a baby he whines and all Randi wants him to do is identify $7200 or $84,000 cables as superior to those costing about $100.

I never said Randi was wrong or incorrect in the outcome of the discussions -- merely that his public delivery (name calling, etc.) was a bit more unprofessional than I'm used to seeing with him.

 

[jazzman]

My reading of the exchanges is that Fremer is offering to go through with the challenge. He can't do it with the products of the two specific companies because those companies won't participate, so he's offering to do it with the cables from his own system. Sounds fair to me.

 

[farace]

My reading of the exchanges is that Fremer is offering to go through with the challenge. He can't do it with the products of the two specific companies because those companies won't participate, so he's offering to do it with the cables from his own system. Sounds fair to me.

My reading of it is that Randi wants to compare either of the high-price cables (Pear's or Fremer's) to a "control," relatively low-priced Monster Cable. Monster wouldn't be required to participate; my impression is that the MC would be an off-the-shelf purchase under the sole control of the testers. Fremer wants to use his own "reference cable," which, being in his possession and control (and unnamed or unspecified?), could be subject to his modification out of sight of the testers. Hardly a controlled comparison under known conditions.

 

[jazzman]

My reading of it is that Randi wants to compare either of the high-price cables (Pear's or Fremer's) to a "control," relatively low-priced Monster Cable. Monster wouldn't be required to participate; my impression is that the MC would be an off-the-shelf purchase under the sole control of the testers. Fremer wants to use his own "reference cable," which, being in his possession and control (and unnamed or unspecified?), could be subject to his modification out of sight of the testers. Hardly a controlled comparison under known conditions.

I guess that's a good point as to the proper meaning of "control," but it's hard for me to see how he could modify his own cables to change the result, and he's not backing out the way the manufacturer clearly is.

 

[sparkchaser]

I guess that's a good point as to the proper meaning of "control," but it's hard for me to see how he could modify his own cables to change the result, and he's not backing out the way the manufacturer clearly is.

All he has to do is demonstrate that he can hear the difference between the two cables. If he wanted to, it would be a simple matter of altering his reference cables with a noticeable defect.

 

[mano]

I guess that's a good point as to the proper meaning of "control," but it's hard for me to see how he could modify his own cables to change the result, and he's not backing out the way the manufacturer clearly is.

Even if Fremer doesn't modify his own cables there's a pretty good chance he's able to identify them because they're his own reference cables that he's listened to them for hundreds or even thousands of hours. If he can identify them, then he can say they're superior to the Monster Cables.

Randi wants to control for that and is challenging him to use his golden ears to identify a pair of unfamiliar but hugely expensive cables within a certain degree of statistical certainty. Now that sounds fair to me.

Sparky, if I understand correctly the challenge isn't to hear the difference between the two cables, but to choose the more expensive cable as superior.

 

[MCsommerreid]

yea, they're kind of like the Bose of cables..

I don't even think Monster deserves to be compared to Bose. That's just plain mean.

 

[patrisVII]

Hey isn't Randi that doctor who wrote the book that tells everyone to eat cactus root to cure athletes foot?

Randi has done some great work in debunking, but he is a committed self-promoter who has played loose with facts in the past. His conduct in the Fermer exchange is fairly typical and has earned him the ire of even fellow skeptics.

 

[Ben]

The fact of the matter is the human ear has its limitations. Paying $7000 or more for an audio cable does not eliminate those limitations.

This is nothing more than niche marketing at work. The manufacturer has identified the niche: audio hounds with limitless budgets.

What you're really paying for is a name, the potential to be associated with prestige (making sure others know you're using the cables), and access to exclusivity. At the end of the day, the cables move a signal around. If they're entirely made by hand, that raises the price. If they're made from exotic or rare materials, that raises the price. If only a handful are made ... you get the idea.

More importantly, they're getting a ton of free word-of-mouth promotion. After all, we're all talking about it. Eventually, some big-spender will get wind of it and buy the cables. The manufacturer will make its rent payment and wait a minute for the next batch of suckers to be born.