Anyone ever play with copper and tin as blade materials? It seems that at one point in history some very very sharp and durable swords where made this way....
Copper and tin as blade materials?
- Thread starter 6Cuda6
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theres a reason steel is used, its just better, while you can get bronze sharp, it wont hold an edge near as long as a good steel. im not sure how the geometry would work out being its a lot softer and less spring than steel but its a less than ideal material for a blade.
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- #3
Interesting.... bronze with tin added was used for many years for sword making without issue and resulted in some of the sharpest, lightest and deadliest swords ever made....its not until we see the introduction of armor that steel became more important as sharpness gave way to blunt edge hacking requiring a hard edge and not so much sharp.
Would a bronze blade razor not be more flexible and sharper than steel if the correct content of tin is used?
bronze is already has tin in it, its a mix of copper and tin. though bronze is a very corrosion resistant material its softer than iron, so its edge keeping ability is much less than other materials. you can harden bronze, but it work hardens and is a lot less controllable. by all means you can definitely try to make a bronze razor, would definitely be neat, and be easy to sharpen, but the edge wouldnt last long. mens whiskers are as tough as copper of the game gauge.
You got me wondering about this. I wouldn't think copper/tin/bronze would be hard enough to allow a fine enough edge to shave with. So I did a little search with my limited google-fu and found this very interesting dissertation by Kaitlin Kincade from the University of Wisconsin. I will link it if you are interested, but here is the most relevant part that I found.
"Experimental archaeology has also been used to measure the potential
effectiveness of prehistoric razors in order to test the idea that they may
have been more symbolic than functional. Conor MacHale, a student from University College Dublin, used soap and warm water with a replica bronze razor of Irish design and found that
quick short strokes were more effective than the long, slower strokes made with a modern
razor. The shave was not as smooth as with a modern razor but the Bronze Age razor
was able to remove stubble. These razors also could cut hair from the scalp, but the
blades needed frequent sharpening. The most effective shave came from a few days’
growth of stubble that was soaked in warm water (Kavanagh 1991:85). This suggests that shaving might not have been a daily activity but was probably done every few days
or on special occasions and events. Kavanagh suggests that a second per
son was often employed as a barber (1991:86). It should be noted that mirrors are not found in this region until the late Iron Age. This suggests that a man would not have shaved himself,"
Here is the link to the entire dissertation if you are interested.
http://dc.uwm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1505&context=etd
So it appears that while not entirely comfortable or practical for everyday use, it is possible.
"Experimental archaeology has also been used to measure the potential
effectiveness of prehistoric razors in order to test the idea that they may
have been more symbolic than functional. Conor MacHale, a student from University College Dublin, used soap and warm water with a replica bronze razor of Irish design and found that
quick short strokes were more effective than the long, slower strokes made with a modern
razor. The shave was not as smooth as with a modern razor but the Bronze Age razor
was able to remove stubble. These razors also could cut hair from the scalp, but the
blades needed frequent sharpening. The most effective shave came from a few days’
growth of stubble that was soaked in warm water (Kavanagh 1991:85). This suggests that shaving might not have been a daily activity but was probably done every few days
or on special occasions and events. Kavanagh suggests that a second per
son was often employed as a barber (1991:86). It should be noted that mirrors are not found in this region until the late Iron Age. This suggests that a man would not have shaved himself,"
Here is the link to the entire dissertation if you are interested.
http://dc.uwm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1505&context=etd
So it appears that while not entirely comfortable or practical for everyday use, it is possible.
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- #6
Very cool....thanks for the link and read.
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- #7
Agreed totally....but the interesting part about this is they say that by verying the tin content at the edge one can control harness and flex...something that was mastered in the bronze age to produce some incredible swords that where strong, flexible and crazy sharp that held an edge sharp enough to cut 20 or so sheets of paper just by dragging the edge across the paper.
Im not expert at all nor a metelagist so im just curious as to why steel would be the ultimate here and think perhaps that bronze became out of fasion when steel came around do to cost etc.....
Interesting idea, but I would guess that since steel is so much easier to get a very good edge on it than copper, tin, or bronze, that that skill is a lost art.
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- #9
I suspect it is as well ....sadly.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
And on your tombstone...
"Here lies the crackpot that tried to take the shavers of the world back not just to the iron age, but all the way to the bronze age."
Lol seriously you should go for it if the idea is really keeping you awake at night. Me, I definitely will be sticking to modern tool steel. Or maybe sapphire. Possibly obsidian. Nah. Steel is easy and works extremely well. It is already made in several alloys that have excellent track records in razor making. For bronze, you will likely have to make it yourself if you really want to experiment with incremental changes in the alloy. Smiths switched from bronze to iron for very good reasons. Then they switched from iron to hardened and tempered carbon steel, again for good reasons. I can't picture the shave from a bronze razor being as good as a decent quality steel blade, but give it a go and let us know how you made out.
"Here lies the crackpot that tried to take the shavers of the world back not just to the iron age, but all the way to the bronze age."
Lol seriously you should go for it if the idea is really keeping you awake at night. Me, I definitely will be sticking to modern tool steel. Or maybe sapphire. Possibly obsidian. Nah. Steel is easy and works extremely well. It is already made in several alloys that have excellent track records in razor making. For bronze, you will likely have to make it yourself if you really want to experiment with incremental changes in the alloy. Smiths switched from bronze to iron for very good reasons. Then they switched from iron to hardened and tempered carbon steel, again for good reasons. I can't picture the shave from a bronze razor being as good as a decent quality steel blade, but give it a go and let us know how you made out.
Go back further. Flint. Still used as a blade material in micro surgery.
Durability and convenience.
Mark
Durability and convenience.
Mark
I think you may be imbuing an advance in alloy metallurgy with mythical properties.
And yes, any advancement in metallurgy would have seemed miraculous at the time.
Go for it.
And yes, any advancement in metallurgy would have seemed miraculous at the time.
Go for it.
Haven't heard of flint still being used as surgical tools. I have heard of a few obsidian tools that are made, but they are not FDA approved for use. Actually the opposite of what you said, they are very brittle (one of the reasons for no FDA approval) and not in widespread use.
Edit: Not saying they aren't used at all, but not in the states and only a handful of specialists overseas.
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- #14
Now that would be something cool....a flint blade with modern accoutriments...not sure how one would keep it crazy sharp but it sure would be nice to see.
Flint has a hardness of 7, if I remember correctly. Most honing media has a hardness of at least 8 ( garnets in coticules) up to 10 (diamond).
So you should be able to hone a flint razor with whatever setup you already have.
The flint knapping skills to produce such a razor are another dilemma though.
So you should be able to hone a flint razor with whatever setup you already have.
The flint knapping skills to produce such a razor are another dilemma though.
On the upside stropping would be pointless and the edge would not dull on a beard. Just don't drop it!
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- #17
Thanks for the info....now to find the person with the skill necesary to make the flint...i know a couple guys that can do the rest of the razor.
Hard to beat good steel. Assuming the steel type or alloy is appropriate, it is hard, resilient, relatively easy to sharpen, and can be honed to a steep cutting angle without suffering from brittleness and micro-cracking, the sworn enemy of ultra sharp cutting edges such as razor blades.
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- #19
True but every once and a while its fun to work outside the box to see what one can do. (ie: mycarver and his skills with a GD and a belt grind or anything for that matter)
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