I agree that that is what they seem to do. It is amazing that all those companies can implicitly coordinate to do that, though. Most of the product has become less and less reliable. The exception would be Toyota. I would say that Toyota commands a premium in pricing because of it, too. I hear Mazda is getting much better.
New car time. Do you buy new and plan on keeping them a long time?
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Our 2018 Mazda CX-5 would say otherwise. For a few years the 2.5 Skyactiv engine used a electric coolant flow control valve instead of the tried and true mechanical thermostat. I replaced the one on ours a few months ago, and the part alone was $300 plus coolant. Had I had the shop do it would have likely added another 3 hours labor. The "engineer" that thought this was a good idea likely never owned one; they did ditch that design thankfully and went back to what we all know has worked for a century now.
Frankly, I even worry about Toyota. I did an in-depth deep dive on a lot of their cars a year ago when we bought our Corolla Cross and even Toyota seems to be leaning towards more complex stuff that could very well cause problems down the road. And their reliability seems to have dropped a bit, according to some sources. The number of sensors alone is staggering and few things are run by belts nowadays ... lots of electronics. I just don't have the faith in most modern vehicles; they've simply gotten too complex.
But, hey, I've been wrong before.
The Japanese are working on 2034 Models because they like to think out years, the other like Cheverlot, BMW could be think out 2-3 years.
Most of the auto companies bought into Electric, and now sits on inventory that is not selling.
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The planned obsolescence model was true back in the day, but I don't think it is today. The manufacturer matters, but the average lifespan for a Toyota vehicle is 200,000-250,000 miles. With proper care and maintenance, some Toyota models can last as long as 500,000 miles.
I suspect most cars can go 200,000 miles today, but probably the majority hit that mark with the second or third owner.
There is quite a bit on the internet on this topic including from Consumer Reports, which seems to say that with the caveat, cars from reliable brands.
It is an interesting question, and the number of miles has surely gone up over the decades. For one thing, I do not think cars rust out the way they used to almost universally it seems. I suppose that lack of rust should be recognized as a great leap forward in car making. I guess I am surprised that a modern CVT transmission lasts that long.
Volvo used to advertise how long their cars lasted. I had a business partner who drove Volvos who argued that because they were more expensive than other cars folks were more willing to put money into them to repair them when they broke down, and that they really were not any longer lasting than other cars.
I do not know how this fits with our earlier discussion of how fast certain luxury cars depreciate.
I do not know firsthand but from what I have read, etc., even 100k miles on a Ferrari or Lambo is a highly unusual amount of miles.
I've got a 2008 with about 111,000 miles. Just put a new CV boot and axle on it (lol, NOT me, but the local Muffler Man) and drove it to Indiana for the eclipse. Still gets 41+ MPG on trips, 36 in the city. 5 speed manual.... The lovely War Department and I fight over who gets to drive it! So much fun. I don't plan on ever getting rid of it.
We only buy Toyota's and I have never owned a used vehicle. I don't want to buy other people's problems and smells, I'll make my own.
Well worth the cost without dipping into the luxury car prices.
We keep our vehicles as long as possible or until we have new needs (towing, kids, etc).
Right now we are lucky to be in a 2019 Tundra 4x4, last generation of the V8 and a 2020 RAV4 Gas. No plans on trading them in or them breaking down.
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I can’t speak for the newer ones. But I’ve owned several Volvos over the years, and can vouch for the longevity. Two I bought brand new. One other, an 855 wagon, I bought as a spare car with 160,000 already on it … and liked it so much it became a daily driver for a few years. One of the new ones I still have, 19 years later. One literally did save my life when another car hit the A pillar at 60 mph, and I was able to walk away from the wreck.
The old 855 I finally sold many years after buying it, to someone who desperately needed a good car on a budget. At that point, it had well over 300,000 on it, many salty mid-Atlantic winters under it, and there was not a darn thing wrong with it. It was rust-free and the paint still shined. I later heard that she sold it yet again several years later to someone in the same situation, and it was still running strong. For all I know, it’s still driving along somewhere.
Not an Irv Gordon story, but still an impressive showing. I’m told the old red block Volvos were even more long-lived, and Volvo used to offer high mileage medals for the grille, going up to 1 million miles. I never got past the 300,000 medal.
My old body shop guy (who has since retired) once told me that the best constructed cars, and safest in accidents, were the upper tier models of the two Big Germans (MB & BMW) and Volvo, and that those three, besides being the safest, were the best to repair and reconstruct, because they were designed to be disassembled and reassembled. He told me most of the rest, and particularly the Japanese makes, used a lot of adhesives that were not designed for reassembly, and didn’t have the same levels of internal rustproofing and undercoating as those three. He would certainly know about these things, as all he saw were vehicles in various degrees of destruction and disassembly.
The other secret to the longevity of Volvos and those two Germans is something that an old Volvo owner once told me before I bought my first one. And that is the maintenance schedules on them are much more rigorous and comprehensive compared to many other makes. And that is in part what makes them last. He quipped tongue-in-cheek that one of the reasons Volvos lasted so long was because ”you wind up replacing half the car” with scheduled maintenance.
But the core of those cars are rock solid, and that is what gives them their longevity. They just held up.
My summer car is an SL that is going on its 24th year. I don’t drive it much anymore (I don’t anything drive much anymore), but all that service and maintenance culture used to apply to the older Mercedes, too. It has not had any serious repairs over all those years; just routine maintenance. I won’t lie, it costs a little more to maintain a car like that than a Camry. But in return, I don’t have any need to replace it, and it still runs as well as the day it was built.
From a old buddy who was a Porsche broker years ago, I was told that the earliest big V-8 Japanese luxury sedans, from Lexus and Infinity, when they were just entering the market in the late 80s and early 90s, and needed to make a statement, were as well made as the best Big Germans, and in a couple areas were even better made, but that quality has sagged a bit on them thereafter.
But that was then. I don’t know how well the new ones hold up. Mrs. C drives a much newer MB, and the last battery change blew out over $4,000 in vehicle electronics (MB took care of it). It’s otherwise a very solid vehicle. I have also been told that the best time to get rid of a newer BMW is right before the warranty runs out, as the repairs have gotten eye-watering expensive.
My daily driver is an old Chevy truck and has been for about 14 years now. And they can go a long time, too. As long as you’re willing to keep up with the maintenance on them, and they don’t age quite as gracefully as those three above can no matter what you do. Lots o’plastic on them, and things wear and crack and fade. And rust if you don’t renew the undercoating on them. But I don’t mind. I’m pretty worn myself at this point.
My accountant once told me the optimal times to buy and sell a vehicle was to buy them one year old, and then trade or sell them at five years. Or if you go longer than 5, to then drive them until the wheels fall off. In retrospect, that seems about right.
I think that once Volvo was very reliable and long lasting. I do not think its reputation has been as good since Volvo was sold to Ford in 1999 and then to the Chinese Zhejiang Geely Holding Group in 2010. The sure look good these days!
Mercedes used to plan out new models in terms of decades. I know they spent that long developing the R129 I drive, as it’s predecessor dated back to the early 70s.
Your comment about the battery powered ones is spot on, and it is costing some of them many billions. I read the other day that Ford slashed the price on their battery powered F150s because the dealers can’t get rid of them. I couldn’t imagine towing anything with a battery powered truck.
Ford generally maintained the build quality, but stole all their safety technology, and let the development of future models wither. The P2 platform was the last Swedish Volvo design.
I have no idea what the Chinese have done with them. I‘ve owned only Volvos from when the Swedes were designing them.
Volvo only sold their passenger car division, and still makes their own big trucks last I checked. So I guess we can take solace in that. At least it wasn’t a Saab story (pun intended).
As an ex MB electronics design engineer, I wonder how that happened. Is it possible the damage was caused by an external tool during battery change? When I left MB (6 years ago), the requirements and testing were still there to make sure scenarios related to battery defects do not happen.
Even more, two years before I left, we introduced a new requirement and test to make sure the electronics do not suffer if the battery is completely removed or disconnected and only the alternator is supplying all the electronics. This was tested in all different kinds of extreme conditions and even the non critical functions had to pass it, despite having an extremely extremely low chance of occuring. In fact, when we introduced it, we had no data that it actually even happened on a car in the field, but in theory, it would be possible and then the decision was to introduce it.
On another note, this week we took the car to the dealer for an inspection. Our Tesla Model 3 LR was declared pretty much worthless because both front and rear motors (!!!) need to be replaced. The bearings inside the units are shot. The car has 75k miles. Now we need to take the other Model 3 LR (same year, similar mileage) for an inspection. I am afraid the outcome will be the same.
I drove my old 2009 Ford Focus (200k miles on and still going strong) to work today. Luckily I did not sell it, it has some sentimental value and I really love driving that car. And what do you know, now it is even worth more than a Tesla. Who would have guess that.
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For the vast majority of people, me included, a car depreciates from the moment you buy it. I buy good used cars between 5 and 10 years old, and then look after them myself, by changing oil and filters. This is good for driving it for 100,000km or more and selling the car as a cheap trade in when it starts to cost money to fix. This has served me well to date. I must stress that I only drive petrol cars. Diesels in New Zealand are subject to road user charges, paid per kilometer which penalizes fuel efficient cars, especially when the price of diesel goes up. Used electric cars is a nightmare I don't want to explore, because of the risks associated with lithium batteries and cost of replacing them.
Is it not possible to replace the bearings for a relatively reasonable price? Though I imagine that outside of Telsa there is almost no one who could get the parts and service it, and Telsa may not be especially motivated to help independent shops. I would have expected an electric motor to be very reliable to last a long time with little maintenance if it was kept cool. Leaving the bearings as the main wear item, but something that should last a very long time and distance.
I’m told it involved the keyless fob transceiver system on the vehicle, and that when the battery was changed, the power interruption caused it to enter a failure mode where it wouldn’t shut off even once the fob is out of range, effectively flattening the battery in a couple days.
There were some other related systems affected and replaced. But once MB agreed to pick up the tab, I didn’t inquire about the particulars. The vehicle was outside warranty.
It amazingly took the dealer two months to fix the vehicle, but Mrs. C got the pleasure of driving several new MB loaner cars for free during that entire time. And it’s never given us any issues since.
I don’t think Ford or Chevy would have extended that level of service on an out of warranty vehicle. But that’s part of what you get when you pay the extra for one of these. And we have owned several, and I guess they wanted to keep us happy.
Apparently, it’s best to keep the vehicle powered even during a battery change to avoid these problems. At least it won’t blow up the charging system if you don’t register the new battery to the vehicle, like some BMWs now require.
I buy 2 years old, pay cash and keep them for 10 years. I haven’t borrowed money since 1996.
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If I paid that kind of money for a sports car (aside from needing a new wife) I'd drive it pretty hard - otherwise what's the point? I wonder if that doesn't factor into their lifespan.
In theory, it is possible to replace the bearings. However, the mechanic let me see the wear as well. It looks like the bearings failed some time ago. Now it is at the point where the bearings are so worn that it makes a clunk noise the moment you touch the acceleration pedal. The whole shaft is moving a few mm inside the cage. Even the cv axles have significant amount of play because of this.
I wanted to check the filter, so we took apart the one from the rear and we found a lot of metal shavings trapped in. What this means is the internals are most likely also worn out and a unit swap makes more sense. Weird thing is, both front and rear are in the same state. Now I am afraid the other Model 3 will have the same issue since it was manufactured just a day apart.
In theory, yes. However, in practice, things tend to be a lot more complex and even electric motors can fail. But in an electric car, there are still many auxiliary systems which assist the motor and the battery, and often those fail.
Another thing is Tesla is redesigning everything quite often, and from a reliability perspective, that's not something you'd want. There is a good reason why other manufacturers design something, release it, monitor how it behaves on the long term, learn from it and if it's reliable, then reuse it as much as possible. If design changes are needed, then a minimal chance is safer. A completely new design has a high risk of introducing many new undetected defects.
