How long did it take for you to learn how to hone?

[Kyle89]

A while lol. Won't ever master it, and it's fine by me. Always learning

No IRL mentor, but obsessively research forums. Only ever saw honing in person once at a meetup (guys named Nelson and Frank) and can say that being around masters of their craft in person is HIGHLY recommended.

 

[Kentos]

If you use a straight forward method, on straight forward synthetics, on a straight forward razor, and you have figured out when you have set a good bevel on your 1000, I think your first few hones will give a decent shave.

Starting on coticules or Jnats you might take a bit longer. IMO setting the bevel is the most important, and second most important is how you decide you have set your bevel. For myself, if it treetops arm or leg hair it’s good.

 

[Wombat ESQ]

27 years and counting

 

[SliceOfLife]

Freehand Knives? Not too long. Had plenty of cheap rental knives to practice on and not hard to tell when it's not working and key in pretty fast. Maybe 2-3 hrs total work over a couple days.

Switch to a harder steel knife and there's a little relearning as they don't fall in place as well on the same set of stones... but that's more of "expanding skills" vs learning how.


Razors? Not really learning "HOW" to sharpen. More learning how to tell when something is wrong. Razors basically sharpen themselves if you have them in good shape and don't screw them up. Fixing Geometry/dealing with hangnails/etc is more "restoring/fixing" than sharpening and those skills are basically just trial and error buying eBay specials and Gold Dollars and doing it.

I probably shaved with garbage edges for 4-6 weeks.

Bought "Shave Ready" razors that weren't (one had a foil edge, one was micropitted to hell)... So my terrible edges coming off Cheap Chinese stones, a plasticky garbage Zeepk strop and an ultra-fine and hard to use Jnat (that there was no way I was using properly at the time) actually were better than the "shave ready" edges I bought. So bad I fell into the "Stropping isn't necessary, the edge is as good coming off the stone" trap for awhile.

I think what sorted me out was actually a microscope and then shortly after DMTs...

Got a kids Microscope set for like $1 at a yard sale. One of the cheap plastic 10-400x things... but good enough I could INSTANTLY see that the one "Shave Ready" razor I'd been using was pitted to hell all along the edge... and the other had been honed with several tape layers and had a wire edge flopping around. Also showed me I should fully rebevel all the ones I'd honed myself for a mix of reasons (pitting, dead spots, etc).

Got My DMTs and got everything I owned into clean metal.... got a few new finishers (My first one was a Swaty if memory serves, then that Ultrahard/fine/slow Jnat... forget what I wound up getting as my first good finisher that I actually learned to use effectively.. but I recall I quickly preferred it to Chromox stropped edges... I'd guess probably a silkstone or La Lune I was assuming was a Thuri at the time.) Upgraded to a better scope so I could ensure I was getting past all the pitting on the 200-300 eBay specials I bought and honed up at this time; and probably by the end of the summer I owned a few Thuris, cotis, some more Jnats and was getting edges I could be proud of.

Spent a year or so buying and testing every stone I could get as well as several hundred more razors but once I realized just how fast 1200&8000 DMTs blew through cleaning, beveling and doing midrange work on a razor... basically lost all interest in that and for the past 15 years; I've played around with finishers.

 

[Kentos]

Freehand Knives? Not too long. Had plenty of cheap rental knives to practice on and not hard to tell when it's not working and key in pretty fast. Maybe 2-3 hrs total work over a couple days.

Switch to a harder steel knife and there's a little relearning as they don't fall in place as well on the same set of stones... but that's more of "expanding skills" vs learning how.


Razors? Not really learning "HOW" to sharpen. More learning how to tell when something is wrong. Razors basically sharpen themselves if you have them in good shape and don't screw them up. Fixing Geometry/dealing with hangnails/etc is more "restoring/fixing" than sharpening and those skills are basically just trial and error buying eBay specials and Gold Dollars and doing it.

I probably shaved with garbage edges for 4-6 weeks.

Bought "Shave Ready" razors that weren't (one had a foil edge, one was micropitted to hell)... So my terrible edges coming off Cheap Chinese stones, a plasticky garbage Zeepk strop and an ultra-fine and hard to use Jnat (that there was no way I was using properly at the time) actually were better than the "shave ready" edges I bought. So bad I fell into the "Stropping isn't necessary, the edge is as good coming off the stone" trap for awhile.

I think what sorted me out was actually a microscope and then shortly after DMTs...

Got a kids Microscope set for like $1 at a yard sale. One of the cheap plastic 10-400x things... but good enough I could INSTANTLY see that the one "Shave Ready" razor I'd been using was pitted to hell all along the edge... and the other had been honed with several tape layers and had a wire edge flopping around. Also showed me I should fully rebevel all the ones I'd honed myself for a mix of reasons (pitting, dead spots, etc).

Got My DMTs and got everything I owned into clean metal.... got a few new finishers (My first one was a Swaty if memory serves, then that Ultrahard/fine/slow Jnat... forget what I wound up getting as my first good finisher that I actually learned to use effectively.. but I recall I quickly preferred it to Chromox stropped edges... I'd guess probably a silkstone or La Lune I was assuming was a Thuri at the time.) Upgraded to a better scope so I could ensure I was getting past all the pitting on the 200-300 eBay specials I bought and honed up at this time; and probably by the end of the summer I owned a few Thuris, cotis, some more Jnats and was getting edges I could be proud of.

Spent a year or so buying and testing every stone I could get as well as several hundred more razors but once I realized just how fast 1200&8000 DMTs blew through cleaning, beveling and doing midrange work on a razor... basically lost all interest in that and for the past 15 years; I've played around with finishers.

Do you think the DMT’s contribute more to spine wear than other methods? Or do you tape the spines? Or is it just experience on the Diamond plates to avoid that?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Generally I only go to the lower grit plates once. I go 8k on occasion just to be sure I've wiped out previous hones when testing unknown finishers... but practically a razor only sees DMT's one time.

So no; even if they did remove more material at the spine vs any other method (and I see no reason why they would), it wouldn't be noticeable in any real world scenario.

If you're actually grinding back the edge... if anything you WANT more material removed from the spine... to avoid changing the edge angle too significantly.

 

[Kentos]

Generally I only go to the lower grit plates once. I go 8k on occasion just to be sure I've wiped out previous hones when testing unknown finishers... but practically a razor only sees DMT's one time.

So no; even if they did remove more material at the spine vs any other method (and I see no reason why they would), it wouldn't be noticeable in any real world scenario.

If you're actually grinding back the edge... if anything you WANT more material removed from the spine... to avoid changing the edge angle too significantly.

I ruined a NOS Kamisori on a DMT so I’m leery of them now lol. That was a long time ago tho, so maybe I would be better now.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I managed to get edges that would shave, pretty quickly. How well they shaved? Okay enough. But I went from using a straight to line my cheeks and clean up the neck to shaving everything but the mustache at the same time. So, there was a learning curve there too. Over the course of a few months my shaving and my honing got a lot better.

One thing that held me back, I think, was using diamond paste on balsa. Not that there's anything wrong with it, if it agrees with your skin. But pastes will cover up a lot of sins, to a point, anyway, and it took me a while after I switched to natural finishers to really understand the value of careful midrange work.

Still learning.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I ruined a NOS Kamisori on a DMT so I’m leery of them now lol. That was a long time ago tho, so maybe I would be better now.

I don't really touch Kamis... I do remember the one I did ever try to hone, the spine just melting on me... and then someone told me everything but the edge is basically raw iron level hardness on a Kami... and I said... "Welp, I'm not dealing with that."

I imagine any hone will chew that up; but ya; more efficient hones like diamonds will do so especially fast.

 

[albsat]

Generally I only go to the lower grit plates once. I go 8k on occasion just to be sure I've wiped out previous hones when testing unknown finishers... but practically a razor only sees DMT's one time.

So no; even if they did remove more material at the spine vs any other method (and I see no reason why they would), it wouldn't be noticeable in any real world scenario.

If you're actually grinding back the edge... if anything you WANT more material removed from the spine... to avoid changing the edge angle too significantly.

You have me very curious. 2 Dmt 1000/8000 before a finisher seems a great system. If you get a razor from Ebay, how easy would be for a novice using this 2 Dmt plates to set the edge (before a finisher)?

 

[kcb5150]

Honestly, I got an acceptably shaving edge on the first razor I ever honed myself and that was a smiling sheffield wedge using a thrown together progression. After that, I found a coticule and got a shaving edge off of that on the first shot. Edges got better over time as I got more of a feel for it. Just getting rid of the lousy king type 1k many years ago for a higher level bevel setter gave me a noticeable improvement in the final refinement.

 

[SliceOfLife]

You have me very curious. 2 Dmt 1000/8000 before a finisher seems a great system. If you get a razor from Ebay, how easy would be for a novice using this 2 Dmt plates to set the edge (before a finisher)?

I find it incredibly easy.

The 1200 DMT has a decent amount of users. Most people seem to run into problems with the 8000. I don't. I kept it clean and it takes a razor from 1200 DMT to ready to finish in under a minute pretty much automatically for me.

A few guys did try the same combo on my recommendation and most if not all went back to standard water stones when they couldn't get the 8k to work for them... so I generally don't recommend it because I don't know what the divide is. My suspicion is it leans towards people not being consistent with their pressure and/or cleaning the plate often enough (8k does need a light cleaning every few razors)... but I've never actually seen someone else use one with razors or seen what results they get doing so; so I can't really determine what problems they are facing.


Getting past all that... restoring an eBay razor will of course depend on the razor... but DMT 1200 is faster than any whetstone I've ever used... (going as far down as 220 grit) at restoring razors/removing material. The only thing I use that's faster is DMT 600 when I really needed to chew through a razor.... and even it is only a hair faster. There's a bit more discussion about that aspect of things because I'm not as alone in using the DMT1200 as I am with the 8k... several folks use the 1200.


8000, as I mentioned is ridiculously fast off the 1200. (partly because of how insanely good the 1200 leaves the edge and partly because of the speed of the 8000). Most razors are done in 20-30 passes. If you don't have a feel for it (and it IS hard to develop a feel for the 8k)... 100 passes will be overkill and work for pretty much anything hollow ground (assuming you were done on the 1.2k). I never really honed a lot of wedges... but hollow ground razors are basically instant on the 8k.

Quite literally every single stone (and I tried dozens) I tried to put between the 1200 and 8000 just slowed me down... Usually VERY significantly... like adding several minutes to the task.



Like with all diamond plates. If you try to (or are really inexperienced maybe). It's pretty easy to wire/tear/roll an edge on an 8000... but frankly... it's exactly that once you've used it a bit... you'd have to deliberately TRY to do so. Best I can describe the correct action is holding the razor at the plate and moving it parallel. Don't roll it into OR away from the plate during your pass... and don't try to push THROUGH the plate at a downward angle... and don't try to "hover" it with some weird 'minimal' pressure pass where you try to hold up some of the razors weight. Just hold it flat and move it forward, turn it and pull it back. Don't overthink it.



I'll reiterate just how insane the 1200 finish is. It's too fat for a comfortable shave... but under the scope; the bevel is more consistent than coming off most finishers. I really can't fathom using anything else as a beveling stone. 8000 is the same thing for midrange... basically... but for whatever reason most, very nearly all, people can't get it to work for them. And I really can't fathom why beyond speculation like I explained above.

 

[DesertIguana]

Two hours. 10 minutes of instruction and 1:50 minutes of practice. My instruction was from a 75 year old Greek wood carver. Served me from carving tools to kitchen knives to scissors to lawnmower blades. It's all the same once you understand the concept, only the tools and methods change very slightly. The principle's remain.

I really don't understand how razors are difficult. You rest the entire thing on a stone. You don't have to hold an angle free hand. The razor already makes the angle from the spine to the apex. Carving tools... one actually needs to hold a free hand angle. Straight razors... the razor is its own jig, set's it's own angle. Nothing for you to do but pull across the stone.

You say you don't understand people’s learning curve to Hone and why they do not get Honing, as you apparently you picked it up skill fast. Some people are talkers saying they want to accomplish something, others are doers who work hard to gaining & perfecting skill.

Most things in life that you wish to master require time, practice, and dedication to accomplishing the task well.

Was watching the Master Golf thing yesterday. Many great Putts by many great Professional Golfers.

These peoples live Golf 24 x 7, they are doing something every day like practicing, working with coach, working with skills, and last practicing playing game. Golf is their Job, they work at job hard., they do their walking of a course unlike normal people. They study every inch, to learning how to play a particular course best. Reward for finishing in top 10 at Masters is not a bad pay check.

 

[albsat]

I find it incredibly easy.

The 1200 DMT has a decent amount of users. Most people seem to run into problems with the 8000. I don't. I kept it clean and it takes a razor from 1200 DMT to ready to finish in under a minute pretty much automatically for me.

A few guys did try the same combo on my recommendation and most if not all went back to standard water stones when they couldn't get the 8k to work for them... so I generally don't recommend it because I don't know what the divide is. My suspicion is it leans towards people not being consistent with their pressure and/or cleaning the plate often enough (8k does need a light cleaning every few razors)... but I've never actually seen someone else use one with razors or seen what results they get doing so; so I can't really determine what problems they are facing.


Getting past all that... restoring an eBay razor will of course depend on the razor... but DMT 1200 is faster than any whetstone I've ever used... (going as far down as 220 grit) at restoring razors/removing material. The only thing I use that's faster is DMT 600 when I really needed to chew through a razor.... and even it is only a hair faster. There's a bit more discussion about that aspect of things because I'm not as alone in using the DMT1200 as I am with the 8k... several folks use the 1200.


8000, as I mentioned is ridiculously fast off the 1200. (partly because of how insanely good the 1200 leaves the edge and partly because of the speed of the 8000). Most razors are done in 20-30 passes. If you don't have a feel for it (and it IS hard to develop a feel for the 8k)... 100 passes will be overkill and work for pretty much anything hollow ground (assuming you were done on the 1.2k). I never really honed a lot of wedges... but hollow ground razors are basically instant on the 8k.

Quite literally every single stone (and I tried dozens) I tried to put between the 1200 and 8000 just slowed me down... Usually VERY significantly... like adding several minutes to the task.



Like with all diamond plates. If you try to (or are really inexperienced maybe). It's pretty easy to wire/tear/roll an edge on an 8000... but frankly... it's exactly that once you've used it a bit... you'd have to deliberately TRY to do so. Best I can describe the correct action is holding the razor at the plate and moving it parallel. Don't roll it into OR away from the plate during your pass... and don't try to push THROUGH the plate at a downward angle... and don't try to "hover" it with some weird 'minimal' pressure pass where you try to hold up some of the razors weight. Just hold it flat and move it forward, turn it and pull it back. Don't overthink it.



I'll reiterate just how insane the 1200 finish is. It's too fat for a comfortable shave... but under the scope; the bevel is more consistent than coming off most finishers. I really can't fathom using anything else as a beveling stone. 8000 is the same thing for midrange... basically... but for whatever reason most, very nearly all, people can't get it to work for them. And I really can't fathom why beyond speculation like I explained above.

Great explanation. Is there a video that you can show what you described above from you ? It would be really interesting to watch! Nevertheless it is a great system and I am glad that works for you so nicely!


DMT 8000 is DMT D8EE Dia-Sharp Diamond Knife Sharpener, Extra Extra, right? it should be 3um grit. Any manufactur makes such 3um grit?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Next time I hone one up I can try to record it. Doesn't happen often as I don't buy razors these days. I've posted videos before; but usually of different stuff. Dilucot, Hard Ark one stone, stuff that isn't "standard" in my book. Not sure if I have ever uploaded just a DMT progression... Think the closest thing was a video of using the DMT and then a scope shot of the resultant edge; but god knows what that thread was called. Not seeing the video in my Youtube uploads; so not sure where I put it.


Found one:

 

[sd_baker]

Found one:

Is this your video?

I always get chips under magnification when I use diamonds. I've always convinced myself that the deep scratch nature combined with super thin geometry near the razor apex is just not a good combination.

I would love to see a scope shot of your edge post DMT if you ever find one.

 

[JPO]

I've always convinced myself that the deep scratch nature combined with super thin geometry near the razor apex is just not a good combination.

That is my experience as well.
I have been down that road a few times. I have also used the dmt 1200 and 8000. I have also used vetrified diamond plates as fine a 1 micron. They are useless as razor hones in my opinion.
The 1200 dmt extra fine is probably a good bevel setting plate, but they cut much deeper then water stones. So, most of the "advantage " is lost because you need to remove more steel the next step compared to if you used a water stone.

 

[jj_sharp]

The first time I honed a razor, it came out about like the last time I honed a razor.

I had a pro hone some for reference, I could not tell the difference.

Disclaimer: I do not seem to notice the difference in edges as long as they don't pull when I shave.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Search for my user ID and scope or microscope. I spent several years scoping stuff at everything from 400x to 4000x. There are some fresh off the DMT shots for comparison, and a lot of finished edge shots... pretty much all with DMT bevel and midrange work.


edit:


Old scope, lot of random stones/non DMT stuff: High magnification images of razors honed on every hone I can get my hands on. - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/high-magnification-images-of-razors-honed-on-every-hone-i-can-get-my-hands-on.441924/

mag is deceiving in that thread... 400x image captured then image cropped to a tiny section of the edge to achieve basically the highest mag I could with the scope and camera setup I had. Didn't record what the final max was on the desktop... but I'd estimate these are at least a couple thousand times mag if you've got a decent sized monitor. Hence why some edges like the unstropped Thuri's look so rough.

Old scope more: Got the scope out again. - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/got-the-scope-out-again.484726/

Early posts in this thread have some old scope shots: My shave results; edge comparisons. - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/my-shave-results-edge-comparisons.569284/

Better scope testing Non-hones (jaspers): Testing Some Jasper Slabs - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/testing-some-jasper-slabs.599415/

GD's at various angles and finishes, Good scope: Testing out Five Gold Dollar 66's purchased for <$5/each - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/testing-out-five-gold-dollar-66s-purchased-for-5-each.595868/

Better scope shot of straight off the 8k DMT attached... grid is I think 100mu FOV if memory serves. This was in my PM's.

 

[bmiller3230]

I don't use microscopes or even loops. Just how the blade against the stone feels and how the blade shaves. I learn every time I put a blade to a stone. Does it like pressure? A lighter touch? Circles? Half strokes? water? Soap? Oil? When do you stop and just shave?

Still learning every time I hone, even though I do get really good edges. Always looking at making the shave effortless, and really pleasant and comfortable.

I don't use synthetics. Only natural stones.