Yaqi copied the Vector

[Wogus]

The final question is always the same ... and that investment in a VECTOR of 200 dollars, will it shave me better than a Super Speed L2, vintage, as bought for 8 dollars?

The answer is NO, I WILL NEVER DO IT BETTER .. the difference between 8 and 200 dollars, is money given away .. and it only has interest, if I show it at the Millionaires Country Club

Everything that had to be invented in shaving was invented in the 1930-40s, the rest has been industrial repetition to the point of absurdity

And in your case, you call design what is just one more repetition, the Vector just a 'three pieces', with a ridiculously lowered screw in half to be inserted into an industrial sheet ... but that IS NOT DESIGN ... that It is crap by design, because it introduces a point of mechanical weakness ... by concession of resistance to 'design', but .. IT IS NOT RENOVATION, IT IS NOT DESIGN AND IT DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING .. it is a bad fix, a botch .. forgive me being sincere and don't shine on your ego, but you better know it .. bad times are coming!

Am I allowed to say I find this post utterly ridiculous?

Asking for a friend...

 

[Atlantic59]

The final question is always the same ... and that investment in a VECTOR of 200 dollars, will it shave me better than a Super Speed L2, vintage, as bought for 8 dollars?

The answer is NO, I WILL NEVER DO IT BETTER .. the difference between 8 and 200 dollars, is money given away .. and it only has interest, if I show it at the Millionaires Country Club

Everything that had to be invented in shaving was invented in the 1930-40s, the rest has been industrial repetition to the point of absurdity

And in your case, you call design what is just one more repetition, the Vector just a 'three pieces', with a ridiculously lowered screw in half to be inserted into an industrial sheet ... but that IS NOT DESIGN ... that It is crap by design, because it introduces a point of mechanical weakness ... by concession of resistance to 'design', but .. IT IS NOT RENOVATION, IT IS NOT DESIGN AND IT DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING .. it is a bad fix, a botch .. forgive me being sincere and don't shine on your ego, but you better know it .. bad times are coming!

Well, the Vector is obviously a design, because, if nothing else, there are other ways to solve this problem of building a narrow head. One could emulate something like a Schick injector, for example. The head of some Schick injector Type E razors is hinged, and allows you to open the razor to clean it or change the blade if you want.

If you want a single edge razor that is vintage, you could just buy the Schick. The cost is very reasonable. For those that want the latest gizmo, they can buy a Vector, etc.

 

[Spang]

I agree with Shane that ripping off someone else's intellectual property is a reprehensible thing and it is a practice I condemn. However, banning any discussion of products that reflect it is a bridge too far for me. Shutting down open discussion about it simply isn't, in my view, an appropriate remedy. It is a treatment that does nothing to actually help eradicate the the disease. On that matter, I have to respectfully disagree with Shane.

The suggestion to ban these threads is apparently based on the assumption that discussion of such products here is tantamount to condoning or, worse, promoting the practice of knocking-off other people's designs. Taking a look at the discussion in this thread, it seems pretty clear to me that is definitely not the case. A lot of diverse opinions have been expressed about this, which is what B&B is all about.

But the real issue this suggestion raises is the inherently arbitrary nature of censorship. How is it to be decided which threads get banned? When does "inspired by" become a banned knock-off? And does that carry over to brush handles, mugs, maybe even soaps and AS, that look like, smell like or are even explicitly based on an existing product? That, my friends, is a slippery slope indeed.

Finally, I'm not so naive to think that B&B is an unfettered platform for free speech. As pointed out, there are plenty of rules here that could be construed as censorship. But saying "since we already have some, let's have some more" is a "two-wrongs-make-a-right" argument that doesn't logically work for me.

 

[EclipseRedRing]

The final question is always the same ... and that investment in a VECTOR of 200 dollars, will it shave me better than a Super Speed L2, vintage, as bought for 8 dollars

That may always be the final question for you but it is not for me, it depends on why you are shaving in the first place. In my case it is for relaxation and the enjoyment of using a variety of vintage razors. Beard reduction is almost incidental for me and the closeness of the shave is of little or no importance. I would not pay $200 or $20 for any modern razor whether it would shave me better or not because I find them dull and lacking in character. Conversely I often enjoy using vintage razors with which I struggle to get a good shave and I am happy to pay for the privilege.

 

[Medivh]

The inventor/creator of the real razor has every right to be pissed and I totally understand it. Unfortunetly, even if all discusions about knock off products are banned, that won't help much.

From where I come from we have an old saying that goes like this - don't blame the one that ate the bread, blame the one who gave it to him. Or the more modern version - hate the game not the player.
It's all a matter of perspective. For some people it's bad, for others is good and it's pretty much like everything else in life and things are not black and white.

A friend of mine told me that he's waiting for a 3D printer made razor that works with GEM style blades and if the Blackland owner decide to make a more affordable version made out of sturdy plastic, that would most certainly kill the intrest of buying a Zamac knock off and still work as an gateway to the more premium SS version.

It's unfortunate for the owner, but things always change and never stay the same and one must adapt. We used to have a family business almost 15 years ago and things were great and we never even dreamed that things are going to change for the worse and that it's going to be like that forever, but that only happens in fairy tales.

 

[pdillon]

Full review of the razor. Unfortunately it's in Russian.

Hah. Didn't watch the video but the handle on the razor in the thumbnail looks to me awfully like a Carbon handle.

 

[Blackland Razors]

A friend of mine told me that he's waiting for a 3D printer made razor that works with GEM style blades and if the Blackland owner decide to make a more affordable version made out of sturdy plastic, that would most certainly kill the intrest of buying a Zamac knock off and still work as an gateway to the more premium SS version.

Have him check out this one (no affiliation. If the link winds up getting killed, it's the Adjustable GEM SE razor by rogerquin on Thingiverse). It's a clever design and a pretty simple print. He can outsource the printing to Shapeways, 3D Hubs, or similar if he doesn't have a printer of his own. Feel free to PM me if you/he would like any help with getting that going.

 

[Medivh]

Have him check out this one (no affiliation. If the link winds up getting killed, it's the Adjustable GEM SE razor by rogerquin on Thingiverse). It's a clever design and a pretty simple print. He can outsource the printing to Shapeways, 3D Hubs, or similar if he doesn't have a printer of his own. Feel free to PM me if you/he would like any help with getting that going.

I think that's the same GEM style razor that he showed me. He found someone close to him with a 3D printer and he gave him that link. I'm kinda sceptical about plastic razors, but I keep seeing people saying good words about them and I guess if the design and the materials are good, they can outlive most Zamak razors.

 

[Blackland Razors]

I think that's the same GEM style razor that he showed me. He found someone close to him with a 3D printer and he gave him that link. I'm kinda sceptical about plastic razors, but I keep seeing people saying good words about them and I guess if the design and the materials are good, they can outlive most Zamak razors.

It depends a lot on the material you choose and the method of printing. Most home printers are FDM machines and print in PLA or ABS. Razors made this way shouldn't be thought of as permanent or intended to outlast other materials, including zamak. They're fairly robust and reasonably strong for the price, but used every day it will eventually break. I print all my alpha protoytpes this way and I've broken basically all of them. Of course, I'm testing pretty aggressively and the designs are optimized for CNC which is often suboptimal for printing. The upside is that you can just print a new part when that happens. And FDM is very inexpensive, especially if you own one, so it's easy to justify that limited durability. The parts shown in that link look pretty robust and durable so they'll last reasonably well.

If you deviate from PLA materials or FDM printing techniques, you can access a lot more options and spend a lot more money. Using other 3D methods can result in better dimensional accuracy, reduced or eliminated layer lines, improved mechanical properties, or a far nicer finish. Depending on the method of printing, you also have access to a plethora of materials that can give you entirely different experiences for your application. Tough engineering resin, filament embedded with carbon fiber or fiberglass strands, flexible rubber-like materials, optical clarity, metals, etc. There is an almost endless number of options. It's all about your goals and budget so you can makes choices that optimize your parts for your specific requirements.

 

[dfoulk]

Yeah, I won't be buying that one for a couple reasons.

First and most importantly, out of respect for Blackland Razors. It's not right to blatantly steal someone else's design.

Secondly, even if it weren't a copy, I don't see the razor holding up with the threads the way they are and it being made of zamak.

I'd recommend to skip it and go for the Blackland Vector directly.

Who knows though, with some luck maybe people will love the copy, it'll then fall apart on them and they can replace it with a Blackland made one.

I won't be buying it though.

 

[Billy T.]

Looks cool, will give it a shot when it's available.

 

[emwolf]

If fighting for my business turns away some customers then so be it. I see no other alternative. Sitting on the sidelines and shrugging while my products are knocked off is not my style. I put a lot of effort, passion, time, and money into making these things and you can bet that I'm going to stand up for what I've created when it's threatened.

I've always aimed to create a business that I would personally want to purchase from. And in my personal life I like companies who fight for what they've made and who scratch and claw for every inch. I'll always support people who believe enough in what they've made that they're willing to fight for it especially when they have to ruffle some feathers to do so. It would be a lot easier and safer for me to just sigh and walk away with my tail between my legs because I'm afraid of losing a customer. But I don't personally respect businesses who do that and so I won't let Blackland become that. If that is unattractive to a potential customer despite the reputation of my products, my customer service, and my willingness to engage in the community then I'm okay with that because I know that there are guys like me out there who value businesses with integrity and determination.

You fight away. Big fan of your Sabres, never ventured into that type of blade, but someday may as the acquisition desire spills over from Gem's and DE razors....

 

[McBlade]

I'm kinda sceptical about plastic razors.

I could find myself living out of a rucsac for weeks or even months at a time (Covid put a spanner in a long kayak expedition I've been planning). It's nice to have a shave once in a while but you really don't want to be carrying extra weight around if you can avoid it. Plastic would be ideal for this. Also an open-comb which can tackle a week-old beard.

This isn't a huge market sector, unfortunately. I'm probably in a minority of one here...

 

[saj1985]

i cant comment on razors because i dont have the experience with using a lot of de/se razors etc
imo what i will say though is that when it comes to some things like for example football tops, i will say is that some fakes are just as good as the real thing,
im not saying thats the case with these razors but just saying it how i feel it is

i can understand why some peeps might be vexed over the fact that theyve been copied and been sold at a 1/3 of the price or even less

i think at the moment whether youre selling a car/house/razor whatever it maybe,
with the current situation worldwide with covid and the economy i personally its a buyers market,
as in they hold all the card and you know like they say money talks...

I can see the arguments from both sides.....on the one hand, if a lot of people just buy the rip-off copies and are satisfied with them, razor companies will end up going out of business. On the other hand, there might be some people who buy the cheap rip-off and like the way it shaves enough to save up to buy the real deal. And maybe some of those buyers would never have done that without the chance to try the general design out at a cheaper price point.

I fell into that latter camp recently. I use replaceable blade straight razors exclusively, and had pretty much settled on the Feather SS as my ultimate razor. But I had the opportunity to purchase a cheap Chinese clone of a Kai razor, and, after using it for a couple of weeks, decided that I wanted the real Kai. So I forked over the $150 or thereabouts for the Kai. I had looked at that Kai razor about 7 or 8 times over the course of a couple of months, but had never actually put it into my cart. I may never have if I hadn't had the opportunity of trying the knock-off.

I guess what I'm saying is for the individual razor maker, it is hard to say what the end result will be. They may lose a few customers, who gravitate toward the cheap one and stick with it (many of whom may never have been able to afford the real deal, anyway), but they may also GAIN some customers who were on the fence about dropping that much money on a razor but then decide to do it based on a trial run with a cheap knock-off.

yea i agree with this post

this happens in the satellite scene a lot, for example the bigger brand set top boxes like dreambox etc go for several hundreds of pounds
then you can get a clone for £100 odd quid, which does near enough the same job and these peeps who buy the clones then move on to the real thing if they like the product a lot

one thing i noticed is that that happens in the satellite scene is that the cheaper clone products work very well but they tend to have a lot more support then the originals as in images to put on the boxes, bugs fixed quicker etc etc,
maybe thats due to high demands people dont wnat to pay a lot more for something that cant be justified, i dont know anyways just putting it out there

 

[Blackland Razors]

I don't think the question is whether or not knock-offs in general can be as good as the real thing. Of course they can. Especially since they benefit from starting with a successful design already. It's pretty easy to bake a good cake when you were given a good recipe. What's at stake is whether we as a very small community can handle an influx of knock-offs without losing the people who actually create the new products we all enjoy. The makers in this space are not huge multi-national firms with massive buying power, R&D departments, and economies of scale; we're mostly tiny (often one-person) operations running on relatively small budgets. Even the most successful of us are specks by comparison to other industries. In other words, it doesn't take much to kill off some artisan makers and the pie may not be large enough to handle a sustained intrusion of knock-offs like maybe it can in other industries. If that happens, the community eventually loses the innovations and new design directions that it currently benefits from. I think that's a shame, but that's my personal opinion and my bias couldn't be more evident.

 

[Felix G]

I don't think the question is whether or not knock-offs in general can be as good as the real thing. Of course they can. Especially since they benefit from starting with a successful design already. It's pretty easy to bake a good cake when you were given a good recipe. What's at stake is whether we as a very small community can handle an influx of knock-offs without losing the people who actually create the new products we all enjoy. The makers in this space are not huge multi-national firms with massive buying power, R&D departments, and economies of scale; we're mostly tiny (often one-person) operations running on relatively small budgets. Even the most successful of us are specks by comparison to other industries. In other words, it doesn't take much to kill off some artisan makers and the pie may not be large enough to handle a sustained intrusion of knock-offs like maybe it can in other industries. If that happens, the community eventually loses the innovations and new design directions that it currently benefits from. I think that's a shame, but that's my personal opinion and my bias couldn't be more evident.

Well said


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[saj1985]

I don't think the question is whether or not knock-offs in general can be as good as the real thing. Of course they can. Especially since they benefit from starting with a successful design already. It's pretty easy to bake a good cake when you were given a good recipe. What's at stake is whether we as a very small community can handle an influx of knock-offs without losing the people who actually create the new products we all enjoy. The makers in this space are not huge multi-national firms with massive buying power, R&D departments, and economies of scale; we're mostly tiny (often one-person) operations running on relatively small budgets. Even the most successful of us are specks by comparison to other industries. In other words, it doesn't take much to kill off some artisan makers and the pie may not be large enough to handle a sustained intrusion of knock-offs like maybe it can in other industries. If that happens, the community eventually loses the innovations and new design directions that it currently benefits from. I think that's a shame, but that's my personal opinion and my bias couldn't be more evident.

yea you make good points as well to be fair and i hear what youre saying and i appreciate it too

 

[Spang]

What's at stake is whether we as a very small community can handle an influx of knock-offs without losing the people who actually create the new products we all enjoy.

If that happens, the community eventually loses the innovations and new design directions that it currently benefits from. I think that's a shame

I agree with you 100% on these points. Where I have to respectfully part ways is with your idea that prohibiting discussion of these products here on B&B will somehow help remedy this problem. I simply don't see that. What I do see is that open discussion around these products will tell us what they really are (and what the real McCoy is), and I think that is a good thing.

Take a look at this thread. It has provided you with a platform to advocate passionately and effectively that patronizing these knock-offs is bad for not only your business, but for our entire community. It is a point very well made and I completely agree with it. This discussion has provided me, for one, with a much better understanding of the potential impact of knock-offs on the small safety razor industry. While I would not be inclined in any event to buy the particular clone razor that started this thread, after taking in this discussion, I'm even less so.

While I don't dispute that knock-offs are bad for your business (and those like you), I would humbly suggest that public discussion of them is not. In fact, I would submit that a free and open discussion of them, like has happened here, is ultimately good for your business. But it couldn't have happened if, as you suggested, this thread would have been banned at the outset.

 

[Blackland Razors]

I agree with you 100% on these points. Where I have to respectfully part ways is with your idea that prohibiting discussion of these products here on B&B will somehow help remedy this problem. I simply don't see that. What I do see is that open discussion around these products will tell us what they really are (and what the real McCoy is), and I think that is a good thing.

Take a look at this thread. It has provided you with a platform to advocate passionately and effectively that patronizing these knock-offs is bad for not only your business, but for our entire community. It is a point very well made and I completely agree with it. This discussion has provided me, for one, with a much better understanding of the potential impact of knock-offs on the small safety razor industry. While I would not be inclined in any event to buy the particular clone razor that started this thread, after taking in this discussion, I'm even less so.

While I don't dispute that knock-offs are bad for your business (and those like you), I would humbly suggest that public discussion of them is not. In fact, I would submit that a free and open discussion of them, like has happened here, is ultimately good for your business. But it couldn't have happened if, as you suggested, this thread would have been banned at the outset.

This is a reasonable take. But this discussion is just me making lemonade from lemons because I don't have a choice. While I'm decent at doing this, the reality is that I don't want to have to make lemonade because I hate these stupid lemons.

Make no mistake about it, I'm doing cleanup work to hopefully stem the flow of future losses for both myself and for the other makers in our community. This isn't moving the needle forward. I'm just trying to keep the needle on the gauge. This thread, and all like it, are damaging because what we don't really see are the people casually viewing it who maybe aren't entrenched in the community and who think "oh cool, a cheap razor" and head off to buy it when they otherwise wouldn't have found it. And those people are less likely to post here for a few reasons. First, most forum members are lurkers who rarely, if ever, post. Second, I'm here and most people are kind enough to not look me in my digital face and tell me that they're buying a knock-off of my product. Finally, the thread has now largely turned pro-original and anti-knock-off so people are less likely to oppose group think and to declare their love of the knock-off.

So while it perhaps looks like the thread is helping me, what we're actually seeing is selection bias in the responses here. We don't see all the website visits, orders, and increased awareness of this knock-off. And those things are certainly damaging. There truly is no such thing as bad press and forums have a chance to cut these bad actors off and to prevent them from leaching off the hard work of the makers in our community.

I don't actually expect forums to do this. They should, to be clear, but I think forums are more afraid of losing members over censorship concerns than they are of losing vendors who can no longer afford the fees here due to dwindling sales. I understand their position and they understand mine. This is evidenced by the sub-forum this thread is now in. They're trying.They get it and I'm sure they sympathize, but our business needs are at odds on this right now and that's okay. Given the current trajectory of knock-off production, I think our needs will eventually align as vendors either choose to stop paying to be members at a place that protects those who knock off our products or as vendors scale down our development of new products, giving forums less content to discuss and, over time, less traffic. It's a tough balancing act for forums and we're not far enough into this for them to really see the impact. I'm definitely early on this because I think it's prudent to act now before we start losing makers and artisans to knock-offs.

 

[Spang]

This thread, and all like it, are damaging because what we don't really see are the people casually viewing it who maybe aren't entrenched in the community and who think "oh cool, a cheap razor" and head off to buy it when they otherwise wouldn't have found it.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I understand your thinking about this, but I think we'll have to settle on disagreeing on this point: I'm just not persuaded that trying to selectively block the flow of information to shavers out there is a winning strategy in the battle against knock-offs. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it ain't going back in. Fighting it by trying to keep people from knowing about it seems like a losing proposition to me. In my view, better to go at them head on, as you have done here, and expose them for what they are.

There is also the very thorny problem of fairly administering a policy that bans any sort of knock-off-centric threads, or perhaps even any mention of knock-off products. It would be hard to make clear rules for that; even if one could, they would be, by definition, arbitrary. That looks like an impossibly slippery slope to me.

Thanks again for your contributions to this discussion.