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Yaqi copied the Vector

I see where you come from but it's the second forum and thus the second thread I see you fighting against sirens crying for deletion of public content. I grant you, this won't bring anyone towards your product who wasn't already with the wallet in his hands. It might as well have the opposite effect.

And sure as hell censorship is not the solution. I don't know if B&B is censor happy or not, but in this regard you are 100% right, if it is it won't be my place.
 
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Would a product selling for under $10 really compete for market share with another at $200? The Vector is a beautiful design finished to a high quality using the best materials. The Yaqi head looks a little rough. Some of that may just be the photograph but it's certainly not a luxury product like the Vector.

I just started wet shaving earlier in the year. The Vector is the first SE razor I've seen that I actually want to try - but I can't afford to spend $200 on a whim. If I tried the copy and liked it that would make me even more keen to get the real thing.

I'd probably also be posting on the forums how great the Vector design is. That might help to generate interest.
This is definitely right. I'm not particularly concerned that the market for the Vector will dry up overnight because everyone wants a cheap knock-off instead. But what about when/if they CNC one? It's about devaluing innovation and undermining the work put into designing and creating these products.

Regarding posting on forums about how great the design is, I do. And it is. But also, we vendors can't post everywhere here so my ability to do so is actually somewhat limited.
 
I see where you come from but it's the second forum and thus the second thread I see you fighting against sirens crying for deletion of public content. I grant you, this won't bring anyone towards your product who wasn't already with the wallet in his hands. It might as well have the opposite effect.

And sure as hell censorship is not the solution. I don't know if B&B is censor happy or not, but in this regard you are 100% right, if it is it won't be my place.
If fighting for my business turns away some customers then so be it. I see no other alternative. Sitting on the sidelines and shrugging while my products are knocked off is not my style. I put a lot of effort, passion, time, and money into making these things and you can bet that I'm going to stand up for what I've created when it's threatened.

I've always aimed to create a business that I would personally want to purchase from. And in my personal life I like companies who fight for what they've made and who scratch and claw for every inch. I'll always support people who believe enough in what they've made that they're willing to fight for it especially when they have to ruffle some feathers to do so. It would be a lot easier and safer for me to just sigh and walk away with my tail between my legs because I'm afraid of losing a customer. But I don't personally respect businesses who do that and so I won't let Blackland become that. If that is unattractive to a potential customer despite the reputation of my products, my customer service, and my willingness to engage in the community then I'm okay with that because I know that there are guys like me out there who value businesses with integrity and determination.
 
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Ridiculous. Stop buying cheap, ****ty copies if you want the artisans, makers, and innovators
I think it's very good that the manufacturer charges 200 euros .. they will always get buyers .. but they won't be popular

But I'm just free to ask myself:
- Worth what it costs? the manufacturer will tell me yes, of course ...
- The material (steel) with which it justifies the labor> the price, is it really ESSENTIAL? .. Does it make any sense to use absurdly hard and unnecessary materials?
- Does this material really add something to shaving? Is a steel head better shaved than a zamak head? How does shaving improve?
- Why do manufacturers with orbital prices believe that they should be protected as a Non-Governmental Organization?
- So much strategic interest does the 'artisan' manufacture of shaving heads have, as to ask for the implantation of censorship?
- And finally .. because they name themselves as craftsmen .. when they are only manipulators of digital programs and CNC machines .. I do not know anything further away from crafts than digital machines!
 
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I think it's very good that the manufacturer charges 200 euros .. they will always get buyers .. but they won't be popular

But I'm just free to ask myself:
- Worth what it costs? the manufacturer will tell me yes, of course ...
- The material (steel) with which it justifies the labor> the price, is it really ESSENTIAL? .. Does it make any sense to use absurdly hard and unnecessary materials?
- Does this material really add something to shaving? Is a steel head better shaved than a zamak head? How does shaving improve?
- Why do manufacturers with orbital prices believe that they should be protected as a Non-Governmental Organization?
- So much strategic interest does the 'artisan' manufacture of shaving heads have, as to ask for the implantation of censorship?
- And finally .. because they name themselves as craftsmen .. when they are only manipulators of digital programs and CNC machines .. I do not know anything further away from crafts than digital machines!
These are good questions. I sense that you are asking them rhetorically and with a specific intent, but I'll just answer them straight.

- Worth is always subjective. What's worth it to me may not be worth it you. I NEVER tell customers that the only way to shave well is to spend big. I don't believe that's true so I don't say it. In fact, I've specifically recommended against my own products in favor of a cheaper option to many beginners because I think it's a better path for them. Still, my business has grown well and continues to perform nicely so there is clearly some worthiness here.

- This is a similar question and answer to the previous. What is essential? It's a matter of values and those vary from person to person.

- Specifically to the Vector, the material allows for the reliable construction of the narrow center post and the incredibly thin cap. We tested in other materials and found it to be unreliable except in steel (and titanium). In 3+ years of using this 2mm post we've seen only two come back out of thousands of units sold between the Sabre and Vector. So yes, if you want your razor to survive a drop and to not cross-thread, SS is the correct material.

- I don't believe that. I leave it in the hands of the community. If you want products like this (and even knock-offs like this) then creators and makers have to be able to make a living. If the community supports knock-offs, then originals die off. If they don't want that to happen, then we take action against knock-offs.

- Same as above, basically.

- I'm not a craftsman and have never claimed to be. I have deep respect for actual craftsmen in our community hand-making brushes, straight razors, soaps, bowls, etc. I simply design razors and run a small business to the best of my abilities and with all the integrity I can muster.

Thanks!
 
The final question is always the same ... and that investment in a VECTOR of 200 dollars, will it shave me better than a Super Speed L2, vintage, as bought for 8 dollars?

The answer is NO, I WILL NEVER DO IT BETTER .. the difference between 8 and 200 dollars, is money given away .. and it only has interest, if I show it at the Millionaires Country Club

Everything that had to be invented in shaving was invented in the 1930-40s, the rest has been industrial repetition to the point of absurdity

And in your case, you call design what is just one more repetition, the Vector just a 'three pieces', with a ridiculously lowered screw in half to be inserted into an industrial sheet ... but that IS NOT DESIGN ... that It is crap by design, because it introduces a point of mechanical weakness ... by concession of resistance to 'design', but .. IT IS NOT RENOVATION, IT IS NOT DESIGN AND IT DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING .. it is a bad fix, a botch .. forgive me being sincere and don't shine on your ego, but you better know it .. bad times are coming!
 
The final question is always the same ... and that investment in a VECTOR of 200 dollars, will it shave me better than a Super Speed L2, vintage, as bought for 8 dollars?

The answer is NO, I WILL NEVER DO IT BETTER .. the difference between 8 and 200 dollars, is money given away .. and it only has interest, if I show it at the Millionaires Country Club

Everything that had to be invented in shaving was invented in the 1930-40s, the rest has been industrial repetition to the point of absurdity

And in your case, you call design what is just one more repetition, the Vector just a 'three pieces', with a ridiculously lowered screw in half to be inserted into an industrial sheet ... but that IS NOT DESIGN ... that It is crap by design, because it introduces a point of mechanical weakness ... by concession of resistance to 'design', but .. IT IS NOT RENOVATION, IT IS NOT DESIGN AND IT DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING .. it is a bad fix, a botch .. forgive me being sincere and don't shine on your ego, but you better know it .. bad times are coming!
Aw man. Guess it's time to close up shop. I, and, everyone here eagerly await your contribution to world of wet shaving and product design.
 
My argument is not against razors made in China. ATT and Fine have both commissioned production of their products in China. That is their decision that may cost some sales because of where the production is and may increase sales based on cost. I would certainly have an issue if the overseas factory produces an overrun of the same product and then sells the overrun under their private label or even worse under the real label. I have seen this done on more than one occasion. It is stealing and no cost savings can ever condone supporting these thieves.

The razor industry that we as members of this forum follow is a niche industry and we are fortunate to have a number of artisans. These artisans operate in the US, Canada, Portugal, Turkey and other countries. They do not enjoy the kind of sales volume that allowed Gillette for instance to produce a high quality product at a relatively low cost. That is why most artisans incur high production costs.

Highly rated razor manufacturers come and go for various reasons, some production related some financially related and some a combination of both. For example Raw Shaving, Weber, the original Tradere (before this great razor was brought back by Blackland with the blessing of and most likely royalty paid to the ordinal owner), where are they now?

We are fortunate to have the opportunity to not only purchase but to learn about what makes these razors what they are. I have personally spoken to Matt at Timeless, Stan (some years back) at ATT, and Shane at Blackland.

Shane’s comments above while partially self-serving in defending his business and livelihood are also defending this community and the ability for us to experience innovation in design and materials.

The article linked to shows this in the Swiss watch industry.

 

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The final question is always the same ... and that investment in a VECTOR of 200 dollars, will it shave me better than a Super Speed L2, vintage, as bought for 8 dollars?

The answer is NO, I WILL NEVER DO IT BETTER .. the difference between 8 and 200 dollars, is money given away .. and it only has interest, if I show it at the Millionaires Country Club

Everything that had to be invented in shaving was invented in the 1930-40s, the rest has been industrial repetition to the point of absurdity

And in your case, you call design what is just one more repetition, the Vector just a 'three pieces', with a ridiculously lowered screw in half to be inserted into an industrial sheet ... but that IS NOT DESIGN ... that It is crap by design, because it introduces a point of mechanical weakness ... by concession of resistance to 'design', but .. IT IS NOT RENOVATION, IT IS NOT DESIGN AND IT DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING .. it is a bad fix, a botch .. forgive me being sincere and don't shine on your ego, but you better know it .. bad times are coming!
These are your opinions, and you are welcome to them. But they are opinions, not facts.

My personal opinion is that the Blackland Razors Vector OC is an incredible razor. Definitely on my list of favorite razors, and may very well be right at the top of that list. It is that good.

To me, the Vector is very much worth the money I spent on it. I have zero interest in getting a cheap knock-off - especially one with a zamak head.

Just my opinion and YMMV.
 
Ridiculous. Stop buying cheap, ****ty copies if you want the artisans, makers, and innovators who continue providing new products for the community to survive. Supporting and sharing the work of knock-offs who steal designs and leverage an artificially deflated currency to produce products at a cost that we can't ever match will eventually kill our businesses. If you enjoy having artisans around to make new things then stop buying this crap. And this applies to all knock-offs. Support makers, not thieves.

I've said this at other forums, Badger and Blade should shut this thread and ban the discussion of knock-off products. We spend time, energy, expertise, and money here and B&B should take a stand and support the vendors, especially the paid ones. If not, given enough time there won't be a whole lot to discuss on this forum as knock-offs steal our business and eliminate the incentive to invest time and money into creating new products.

Edit: Many thanks and kudos to the bulk of the members in this thread. Your support and desire to pursue the real thing is deeply appreciated. QUOTE]

I started this tread. The purpose was to alert not to promote. I also sent you an email about it. As a customer of yours I disturbed.


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A forum is a place for individuals not businesses. As such, we can discuss whatever we like.
If it wasn't for businesses that Mfg the products we discuss on forums there would be no need for any forums to discuss anything!! Lets also not forget that businesses, like @Blackland Razors, pay a premium to be part of a forum to introduce their products and or wares to be discussed and to be there to provide additional info if asked to further discussions on forums!!
 
@muzichead

The claim that people with a personal financial interest should be able to pay to censor content is a truly awful argument.

But vendors could have a right to defend intellectual property. We should certainly listen to any good arguments.

I'm not clear what the legal position is here. Is the Vector patentable? If it is, did Blackland take out a patent?

That's not the whole story, of course. Even if no law is broken by copying the Vector, I'd still feel innovation deserves to be rewarded fairly (by "fair" I mean exclusive production rights must have some time limit otherwise they eventually become economic rents).

What makes the whole dispute kind of moot, IMO, is that the Yaqi copies we've seen won't even affect sales of the real thing (the vendor seems to agree). A high-quality copy would be a different story.

For what it's worth, my own feelings are that I'm quite curious about the design and trying out a cheap copy would only make me more likely to buy the real thing. If it performed well I'd be thinking "if the copy is this good the original must be even better". If it performed badly, I'd just write it off as a bad copy. It wouldn't put me off the original.

Maybe Blackland should make a Mission-Impossible-style trial version which self-destructs after a single use :)
 
@muzichead

The claim that people with a personal financial interest should be able to pay to censor content is a truly awful argument.

But vendors could have a right to defend intellectual property. We should certainly listen to any good arguments.

I'm not clear what the legal position is here. Is the Vector patentable? If it is, did Blackland take out a patent?

That's not the whole story, of course. Even if no law is broken by copying the Vector, I'd still feel innovation deserves to be rewarded fairly (by "fair" I mean exclusive production rights must have some time limit otherwise they eventually become economic rents).

What makes the whole dispute kind of moot, IMO, is that the Yaqi copies we've seen won't even affect sales of the real thing (the vendor seems to agree). A high-quality copy would be a different story.

For what it's worth, my own feelings are that I'm quite curious about the design and trying out a cheap copy would only make me more likely to buy the real thing. If it performed well I'd be thinking "if the copy is this good the original must be even better". If it performed badly, I'd just write it off as a bad copy. It wouldn't put me off the original.

Maybe Blackland should make a Mission-Impossible-style trial version which self-destructs after a single use :)
I never mentioned any type of censoring in my statement so not sure why you even would imply such, I merely replied to you saying that forums are meant for individuals only and not businesses!! My post was pretty clear and mentioned nothing of censoring in any way, shape, or form!! If you read it as such you need help....
 
I can see the arguments from both sides.....on the one hand, if a lot of people just buy the rip-off copies and are satisfied with them, razor companies will end up going out of business. On the other hand, there might be some people who buy the cheap rip-off and like the way it shaves enough to save up to buy the real deal. And maybe some of those buyers would never have done that without the chance to try the general design out at a cheaper price point.

I fell into that latter camp recently. I use replaceable blade straight razors exclusively, and had pretty much settled on the Feather SS as my ultimate razor. But I had the opportunity to purchase a cheap Chinese clone of a Kai razor, and, after using it for a couple of weeks, decided that I wanted the real Kai. So I forked over the $150 or thereabouts for the Kai. I had looked at that Kai razor about 7 or 8 times over the course of a couple of months, but had never actually put it into my cart. I may never have if I hadn't had the opportunity of trying the knock-off.

I guess what I'm saying is for the individual razor maker, it is hard to say what the end result will be. They may lose a few customers, who gravitate toward the cheap one and stick with it (many of whom may never have been able to afford the real deal, anyway), but they may also GAIN some customers who were on the fence about dropping that much money on a razor but then decide to do it based on a trial run with a cheap knock-off.
 
If it was my design and still in production I would be p.... tooo.

Bought several more expensive razors and sold most of them if they did not get sufficient work.

Stupid enough do not want to part from a merkur futur copy because well it shaves very well and it was my first de..... might get the real deal once though. It is a nice design.

Do not have a problem with those making a homage model of a 100 year old model though. Wished Gilette revamped their old models instead of buying a head...
 
The final question is always the same ... and that investment in a VECTOR of 200 dollars, will it shave me better than a Super Speed L2, vintage, as bought for 8 dollars?

The answer is NO, I WILL NEVER DO IT BETTER .. the difference between 8 and 200 dollars, is money given away .. and it only has interest, if I show it at the Millionaires Country Club

Everything that had to be invented in shaving was invented in the 1930-40s, the rest has been industrial repetition to the point of absurdity

And in your case, you call design what is just one more repetition, the Vector just a 'three pieces', with a ridiculously lowered screw in half to be inserted into an industrial sheet ... but that IS NOT DESIGN ... that It is crap by design, because it introduces a point of mechanical weakness ... by concession of resistance to 'design', but .. IT IS NOT RENOVATION, IT IS NOT DESIGN AND IT DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING .. it is a bad fix, a botch .. forgive me being sincere and don't shine on your ego, but you better know it .. bad times are coming!
yeah? Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

I'm gonna try to tackle your two main assertions, though, just for fun.

1) Will a Vector shave you better than your SuperSpeed? It depends. Some people, especially those with very coarse, wiry stubble, will undoubtedly answer yes, because the AC blade is inherently sturdier and deflects less when cutting through stubble.

2) Are you seriously saying that the idea of putting a flat but threaded screw that goes through the center of the AC blade is not a "design"? One of the problems some people had with AC razors was that the heads were too bulky, which made it hard for some of them to get a close shave in tight spaces like under the nose. Shane thought through the problem and figured out a way to make the razor head considerably narrower; the solution to the problem was, in fact, a design feature. By definition it contributes something; it narrows the razor head, which a lot of people find useful. Not sure why you would call it a botch. It is only a botch if it fails frequently, which it apparently doesn't. It may introduce a spot that is mechanically weaker than a full screw would be, but if it is mechanically strong enough to suit the application, which it appears to be, then it is not a "botch."
 
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