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Why the Bevel’s Angle is Important
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I began straight shaving with various models of Gold Dollars. I got good shaves with decent comfort. Then I got a couple of vintage blades and got closer shaves more easily and more comfortably. Yep, I believe there is something to bevel angle after all. Good thread. Thanks.
Take a GD and do a pass. Then take a vintage and see if anything got left behind. And vice versa. I did that and proved to myself that the higher angle left nothing behind. Try it and see for yourself. Same pass same type of hone.
Been there and done that and you are right. Never got BBS with a GD. Daily occurrence with vintage. Vintage more comfortable too.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
When I get home probably in September I will finish up the current batch of GD mods and put them through The Method, then pass one around. I'm gonna toss you down another rabbit hole and send it to you first. I think you will agree that it outshaves a stock GD and most vintage razors, as well. Bill will be next after you, then open board. Soon you will be modding like a madman, comparing bevel angles, widths, thicknesses, French Point, Spanish Point, Dreadnaught, Barber Notch... jimps vs no jimps, Kamisori shank taper vs thumb notch, and let's not go into finish and spine carving and blade etching and scales and pinning and washers. Only 9 more months before the official start of the 2019 GD Mod Competition! Just sayin.
You CAN get BBS with a stock GD, BTW. Just takes technique, as well as good honing. However I personally see true BBS as completely unessential. Nobody else will notice the difference. Anyway, if you get BBS with any razor, it is only logical that the next one won't get any closer. So Bill's comparison is probably very much a real thing. Comparing a good shave's results with another blade's good shave results is not particularly conclusive. Especially when the shaver has been straight shaving long enough to be pretty good at it. Comparing the ease with which two blades get that good shave is another thing, but still somewhat subjective. Most guys agree that bevel angle matters. Some say it matters a little, some say it matters a great deal, and some few say it is totally totally totally unworthy of consideration. I say every man should find out for himself. As for me, I have decided and that is that. There is a sweet spot that I like best. There is an acute extreme where the edge has a tendency to topple when honed, or to dull quickly. There is an obtuse extreme where the shave is sort of meh, and I have to do all the work, or even more obtuse, where it is difficult to get a good shave at all. My sweet spot is 16deg to 17deg and if you carefully measure most any Dovo, TI, Boker, or other old school big name brand razor you will probably find the bevel angle to be just under 17 degrees. Most shavers who have given the matter much thought will agree. Most any razor only a degree more or less, will shave with no obvious failure due to bevel angle. Carry it to extremes and the razor will not be as good a performer as it could be. YMMV of course.
If it shaves good enough to satisfy you, no need to monkey around with the bevel angle. Even just knowing the bevel angle is only important for academic or experimental purposes, if the razor is shaving well. It is when you are troubleshooting a problem razor that it is important to measure and consider whether corrective action is worthwhile or not.
If one is interested at all, then he should indeed measure a few razors and get a handle on this thing. Just don't agonize over differences that won't even be noticed. OTOH, taking a GD down from 19deg to 16deg is significant. Just like taking a 14deg razor that just won't take an edge and giving it a 16deg microbevel makes a significant difference.
Pass around sounds good. Looking forward to it. Haven’t used a GD in a while. I’ve been picking up some vintage stuff and honing and shaving with those. I’m surprised that you can pick up nice blades for so little. Have to admit I did spring a few bucks for a NOS Bengall but not on the bay. Should be here Saturday. Before I hone it, I’ll measure and check the bevel. I bought a razor with a “modified” blade for the scales I’m going to put on my 66 and sell the other GD’s. Not really impressed with the W series. I bought a Soligen back in 1982 and started honing it and found the spine was bent a bit. By then time I got it to lay flat it had a bevel that was all over the place and the bevel angle checked out to about 12 1/2 degrees - very uncomfortable shave. Nice scales to salvage though. Back to the original point of all of this - I’ve only done between 80 and 90 shaves and I’m still improving. If I used a GD in the morning, I would likely get a better shave than the last time I used it. I’m only having to do two passes now and the first pass would be acceptable by most standards. Anyway, I’m on 1u on a Sefton Crown Jewel and need to finish so I can give it a spin in the morning so good night to all.
Nothing wrong with any razor that you prefer. It's your choice and money after all. The w59 is +/- 15 degrees. If the angle is the issue with a 66 this one should solve that problem if it is a problem. Not sure if you tried one of those yet. I used.to.think that wedges we're the deal. I got my first bbs with one and went out trying to find more of them. Now I don't own any of them. And would gladly take a full or extra hollow anyday over a wedge. I'm not saying what your saying isn't valid. And don't buy a w59 if you don't have one just for an experiment..
This is easily tested. All you need is a couple of identical razors, hones, tape, and a friend. I encourage each of the honemeisters posting in this thread to pair up and do some blind tests. Report back your results. Let's see if the bevel's angle is really so important.
What if you don't have any friends? 
I have the W60 and W62. The scales are too heavy on the 60 and I don’t like the point or short blade on the 62. No problems with the edges. I’ll probably sell them and keep the 66 and change the scales. I still like the 66. Just haven’t used it in a while because I have other blades I’m playing with right now. I’ll get back to it.
That's what cash is for.What if you don't have any friends?
Lots of folks talk all kind of stuff in and around razors. There's all sorts of mythology and hocus pocus. But this notion that "bevel angle is important" is easily tested, if folks are willing to do a simple blind test and stop hiding behind bs.
I have never seen anybody prove anything like that thru objective tests like hht etc I haven't been able to prove it to myself either. Lol. What's the best razor? Ask 100 guys and get 100 different answers. If barbers shaved men with straights today I'm sure they would use gds for their low cost .
I'm not sure about that, but...Slightly off topic. A barber round the corner, where I go to get my hair cut, wants to do shaves with real SRs. The council agreed - provisionally - that he could, but only if he uses a new SR every time. I'm discussing with him the possibility of using the GD66s, honed by me, and he just gives them away to the person being shaved at the end.
Yo!!! Whats good guys!!!
Hi!!! Its been forever guys!!!
So many factors in the honing game! The razor steel, angles, stones, hones, pastes, leathers, linens, abrasives, qi and the users touch and in the end all that matters is the shavers preference
The near endless journey that it takes to figure that out drives one into a mad scientist
This has been a really informative topic. Greatly appreciated Keith.
However, how about kamisori bevel angles?
First, how do I calculate a kamisori bevel angle, each side the omote and the ura are different?
Secondly, because the kamisori have soft spines metal which wears faster than the hard steel it seems that the bevel angle could change almost every few honings,
Alex Gilmore
However, how about kamisori bevel angles?
First, how do I calculate a kamisori bevel angle, each side the omote and the ura are different?
Secondly, because the kamisori have soft spines metal which wears faster than the hard steel it seems that the bevel angle could change almost every few honings,
Alex Gilmore
I would put the ura side down on a flat surface and measure the height of the omate hone contact point with a height gage. Divide the height by the distance of that point to the edge then Arc sin to get the angle.
2 mil Kapton tape could be used if you don't want the angle to change and just omit it if you would rather work toward a more acute angle.
I'm assuming that I got the ura and omate sides correct. I understand the ura to have the wider active width.
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Thanks I will give it a try. I figure that the omote side will be a steeper, and the ura will be shallower. If a normal hollow ground razor has the bevel angles on each side at 15 degrees, does this make the actual double sided razors cutting angle as a combined 30 degrees? I mean are we all shaving on 30+/- or shaving with 15 degree edges. If this is true and the kamisori has a omote single side bevel angle of 25 (which it might) and the ura is 5 degrees, does this make the combined 30 degrees?
I probably sound pretty stupid, I've gotten used to this.
Alex
Lol Alex. Normal straight generally range from about 14° to 18° included angle (between both sides) or half that on each side. There are of course outliers to be found.
