+1 When it comes to honing or stropping it's probably easier for me to give the measurement in time than in laps, unless as you say it's "in the range of..." (although I've started counting the last few days 'cos of this thread, lol)...
Why strop so many times?
- Thread starter AimlessWanderer
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Is this axiom really true, “sharpen once , strop forever “?I have been sharpening blades for years professionally...locally as a side business. This way I can afford to buy more knives and razors.
There's a small axiom among sharpeners. Sharpen once, strop forever. I personally strop at least 30 times per side. Sometimes as much as 60 per side. I do it to prevent having to re-hone an edge. This way the only time I have to re-hone/re-sharpen is if the edge gets damaged somehow. Additionally, the smoother an edge the better the shave.
TL;DR - "yes and no."
It depends, but generally speaking I'd say that axiom is a best practice aim, rather than a definite goal.
Stropping is really important for sharpness, cleanliness and comfort. Stropping on linen,or plain leather convexes the bevel, which over time reduces sharpness to an extent (some disagree), but it also "tightens" the edge (some disagree again) and burnishes the steel. Stropping on pasted strops is designed to improve sharpness, but it also convexes the bevel. Confusing, ain't it?
As for how long between honings - You can get away with "touching up" an edge that dips below peak sharpness for quite a while, but eventually you'll have to go back and start again at bevel set... or somewhere between touch-up and bevel set, lol.
Additionally, sharpness is only part of the deal with SRs:- Sharpness, specially with today's high end waterstones, is pretty hard to miss. You'll get it sharp, and can keep it sharp for a long time, but getting it smooth, and keeping it smooth is a different matter. After honing for sharpness, you hone for smoothness, over time and if you get into it, you hone for individual requirements, then for steel type, then for grind and blah blah blah...
I like honing and hone every day, so I don't really know what the outer limit of my shave count is. I generally re-hone any razor after 30 or so shaves, some after 5 or so (Gold Dollars or razors with low angles and weedy grinds usually fall into that category), or do a touch-up when the blade feels less than stellar.
Some razors will always need re-honed after 30 shaves, some razors, specially robust Swedish or Japanese ones will do - I suspect - maybe 90 shaves without needing anything done to them.
If you are satisfied with the sharpness and smoothness of your edge, then whatever method you are using is suitable.
I have a tough beard and sensitive skin, so I want my edges to be as sharp and as smooth as I can get them. My typical practice is to strop 25 laps each on three different fabric strops and 25 laps each on four different leather strops. That is 175 laps total. Is that more than required? I suspect I could cut the laps in half and not affect the edge significantly. As long as my technique is good, the extra laps are not going to harm the edge and they might do some good. As long as I have time for the extra laps, I plan to continue. If I am in a hurry, I will do 20 laps on linen and 50 laps on a single leather strop. With the reduced stropping, I believe I feel a slight difference in the edge, but it might be all in my head.
I have a tough beard and sensitive skin, so I want my edges to be as sharp and as smooth as I can get them. My typical practice is to strop 25 laps each on three different fabric strops and 25 laps each on four different leather strops. That is 175 laps total. Is that more than required? I suspect I could cut the laps in half and not affect the edge significantly. As long as my technique is good, the extra laps are not going to harm the edge and they might do some good. As long as I have time for the extra laps, I plan to continue. If I am in a hurry, I will do 20 laps on linen and 50 laps on a single leather strop. With the reduced stropping, I believe I feel a slight difference in the edge, but it might be all in my head.
This is how my French barber strops his razor. 6 quick laps on a pasted and heavily slackened loom strop and then it's off to cutting my hair.
Recently, I spent some time with a local razor maker and restorer. At one point we were talking about stropping and he told me that most people were stropping way too much going up and down along the length of a hanging strop. He said the most important thing was to do around 2-3 very short, laterally-biassed laps with just a little pressure at the start to realign the edge, followed by 10 or so laps with no pressure along the full length. Finding the laterally-biassed passes difficult with a hanging strop, I've instead been applying the method to a small, felt-lined paddle strop, and it has been working quite well.
As long as you initially started with a well-honed blade, almost any method for maintaining that edge works. You could skip stropping for one day and you could still shave. You could use paste every week or two and things would probably be fine for 6 months or so.
If you use a finishing hone for a few laps and do that every week, that would probably be fine for a year or two. Once you know how to get it sharp for the first time you will probably hone it again before it needs it just because you feel the need to hone something.
This is why there are so many answers to this question. No one really waits as long as you would have to wait, to answer this question. Maintaining an edge is easy and that's the bottom line.
Even though I have done a bit of experimenting over the years, I currently just strop about 10 times after a shave and 20 times before a shave.
If you use a finishing hone for a few laps and do that every week, that would probably be fine for a year or two. Once you know how to get it sharp for the first time you will probably hone it again before it needs it just because you feel the need to hone something.
This is why there are so many answers to this question. No one really waits as long as you would have to wait, to answer this question.
Maintaining an edge is easy and that's the bottom line.Even though I have done a bit of experimenting over the years, I currently just strop about 10 times after a shave and 20 times before a shave.
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AimlessWanderer
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Having gotten a little (not much) more experienced with a straight since starting this thread, here's what I've settled on....
Pre-shave:
6 to 10 slow and purposeful laps on the strop. None of the flappy slappy stropping that I've seen on videos. Bear in mind also that my strop is just 1.1/2" wide, with about 10" of travel, so that's very little travel for any given part of the blade, and each "wipe" takes two to three seconds over those few inches of leather.
Post-shave:
Nothing. Just cleaned, dried and stowed. I don't see the point of stropping after as well as before. I know some do it to dry the edge, but I prefer a slow wipe on a fluffy towel. The edge "recovering" on its own is something that's highly disputed, but I leave it to do that anyway. If it doesn't recover, either wholly or in part, I'll be stropping before I use it next anyway, so nothing is lost.
I'm not striving to polish or burnish when I strop, merely align. If some people perceive an advantage to longer stropping, post shave stropping, or simply just enjoy the activity, then that's great. This seems to be working for me though, and I'm a bit believer that if something's not broken, don't fix it till it is
Pre-shave:
6 to 10 slow and purposeful laps on the strop. None of the flappy slappy stropping that I've seen on videos. Bear in mind also that my strop is just 1.1/2" wide, with about 10" of travel, so that's very little travel for any given part of the blade, and each "wipe" takes two to three seconds over those few inches of leather.
Post-shave:
Nothing. Just cleaned, dried and stowed. I don't see the point of stropping after as well as before. I know some do it to dry the edge, but I prefer a slow wipe on a fluffy towel. The edge "recovering" on its own is something that's highly disputed, but I leave it to do that anyway. If it doesn't recover, either wholly or in part, I'll be stropping before I use it next anyway, so nothing is lost.
I'm not striving to polish or burnish when I strop, merely align. If some people perceive an advantage to longer stropping, post shave stropping, or simply just enjoy the activity, then that's great. This seems to be working for me though, and I'm a bit believer that if something's not broken, don't fix it till it is
Over the past few months, I've been stropping 50 laps on .1u diamond pasted balsa (after the initial progression of .5u, .25u and .1u) then 50 laps on leather after every shave and so far have never needed to touch up a blade. This gives me a freshly sharp razor every morning. I have experienced no deterioration of an edge since beginning this routine in April.
I'm interested, do you ever inspect your edges under magnification? I would expect some degradation over time even with the diamonds paste. Just wondering if you are seeing any micro chips appearing at all. I can imagine them forming - but the paste smoothing them so they don't cause a problem.
(I use the method on some of my razors but rotate them with non method razors and so they are getting no where near as much refreshing on the diamond as yours)
Maybe I'll broaden my definition of "touch-up".
Congratulations on finding a method that works well for you.
50 laps after each shave on 0.1 micron diamond is probably fine, but I would not necessarily recommend doing the same thing on 0.5 micron diamond. Other abrasives like CrOx and CBN are less aggressive than diamond, so 0.5 micron would be less of an issue with those strop compounds.
.5 micron is .5 micron regardless of the abrasive used. In achieving the same degree of sharpness, exactly the same amount of material is removed. Diamond is just faster and likely with more accurate particle size. The .1u is what, for some reason, removes the harshness of the prior .5u and .25u. In any case, the amount of steel removed at this level of polish is too minimal to even consider in any practical sense.
I rarely use magnification- purposely avoid it actually. I TTH to check to see if I’m where I want to be when I finish honing. From there on, it is just how the razor feels on my face. I’ve been maintaining my razors this way for months and it works for me. You may want to touch base with @Slash McCoy as he developed this method and will likely have answers to your questions regarding micro chips and such. As far as wear on the blade due to frequent .1u stropping goes, it would probably take a century to notice. I use this process because I will have a perfectly sharp and comfortable edge every morning regardless of the razor I happen to pick up.
Fair enough - I was particularly interested in your experience regarding micro chips because you are clearly maintaining your razors in this way consistently over a long period of time and it's working so well. I think you also have gold dollars don't you, which can be chippy.
Why I ask is because I've been alarmed by micro chips cropping up on my razors in the past. Once might have been caused by diamond paste, but I think that was because it was stropped on suede.
I only use the pasted balsa with stainless blades because I don't like the feel of the method edges on my other razors. The stainless doesn't seem to chip.
I wonder if the fact that the diamond is embedded in a perfectly flattened surface prevents chipping or whether the repeated stropping polishes out any chips.
If you ever do start checking them under 60x magnification then I would be very interested in what you find.
Particle shape (and maybe friability/breakdown) does make a difference though, right? (otherwise why would it cut "faster" at all). In my experience diamonds cut deeper than chrome or iron in a similar particle size, and leave deeper scratches.
Having said that, I suspect some of the cheaper CroX and IroX paste sold is actually just diamonds in the appropriate particle size associated with that paste, so there might not always be much of a difference there.
Having said that, lol, and as you say ("Diamond is...likely with more accurate particle size.") this comes from a discussion of Dovo branded pastes from another forum "...the green's maximum particle size of steelcutter (is) about 6 microns. They're not the most exact mediums...".
Do you think the suede made a difference, and why?
I do get different results using diamonds on nylon to diamonds on balsa - I'm fairly sure the scratch pattern is deeper and more pronounced (here and there), because in those places the steel makes contact with the 'higher' spots in the weave of the nylon, and the abrasive sits atop those high spots aswellas in the shallow parts of the weave.
Functionally, the difference is not enough to make me prefer balsa over nylon though.
The pasted balsa method is precise (if following The Method instructions): well lapped balsa and diamond paste distributed more evenly and sparingly. Suede is unpredictable. I've never found a way to get an even distribution. In fact with CrOx and FerOx I much prefer plain leather and using oil to distribute them.
Just had to make me do it didn’t you?
I checked three razors two of which were NOS and didn’t see anything of consequence even at 120x and they have been treated this way many times. The balsa grain is open enough enabling the diamond particles to sit in the grain with their little points sticking up so they don’t roll around as would be the case with a harder more tightly grained wood. Various woods have been tried but as far as I know, none has proven to be better. I assume you’ve watched @Slash McCoy recent video regarding stropping vertically to maintain seriously light pressure. Much to my surprise, it did make a noticeable difference. No idea whether micro chips were involved though. I’m by no means a honing guru. I simply followed precisely the instructions as laid out by Slash and was producing killer edges within a week. I’m not an experimental type guy so I haven’t ventured beyond The Method. I did hone a razor on stones once after I learned on film just to see if I could and it worked just fine but was much more messy and involved lapping and such so why bother? I can actually detect the feedback from film now which is nice and harder to detect than stones. I did buy a razor recently that is being honed on a jnat by an experienced honemeister so I can see what all the fuss is about. Some say that a jnat produces an incredibly comfortable edge. My edges are already incredibly comfortable so there will be serious competition there although I doubt there will be any real competition on sharpness. It will be approximately 12k vs 200k. I will post my opinion once tested. I will only strop on leather until it is too uncomfortable to shave with though since I’ve never experienced a deteriorating edge.
Ha - thank you for looking. Even if you aren't experimenting your consistent application of the method is important experience for the community.Just had to make me do it didn’t you?
I checked three razors two of which were NOS and didn’t see anything of consequence even at 120x and they have been treated this way many times. The balsa grain is open enough enabling the diamond particles to sit in the grain with their little points sticking up so they don’t roll around as would be the case with a harder more tightly grained wood. Various woods have been tried but as far as I know, none has proven to be better. I assume you’ve watched @Slash McCoy recent video regarding stropping vertically to maintain seriously light pressure. Much to my surprise, it did make a noticeable difference. No idea whether micro chips were involved though. I’m by no means a honing guru. I simply followed precisely the instructions as laid out by Slash and was producing killer edges within a week. I’m not an experimental type guy so I haven’t ventured beyond The Method. I did hone a razor on stones once after I learned on film just to see if I could and it worked just fine but was much more messy and involved lapping and such so why bother? I can actually detect the feedback from film now which is nice and harder to detect than stones. I did buy a razor recently that is being honed on a jnat by an experienced honemeister so I can see what all the fuss is about. Some say that a jnat produces an incredibly comfortable edge. My edges are already incredibly comfortable so there will be serious competition there although I doubt there will be any real competition on sharpness. It will be approximately 12k vs 200k. I will post my opinion once tested. I will only strop on leather until it is too uncomfortable to shave with though since I’ve never experienced a deteriorating edge.
I think this :
The balsa grain is open enough enabling the diamond particles to sit in the grain with their little points sticking up so they don’t roll around...
Is probably the nub of it.
