Why NOT Tallow?

[TheChariot]

Prior to today I was purchasing soaps with the moniker of "Who cares if it's tallow as long as it performs?"... but that's going to certainly change now. I don't feel as though vegan soaps are necessarily bad performers, but I'm noticing a distinct pattern of wishing that all of my vegan soaps behaved more like the tallow soaps in some key categories. Much of this is clearly YMMV, but I feel like that's only the case when you're comparing different brands.

What is it (besides ethical reasons) about vegan shave soaps that makes people choose them over tallow soaps? Is there something that vegan soaps do that tallow soaps cannot? Honestly, I don't know that I've ever heard anybody say "Oh that scent sounds like it's right up my alley, but SHUCKS it's only in tallow!" with soaps like B&M for example. Very few shavers are vegan-only regarding their soaps, but there's a ton of people who will use either and a number who will only use tallow soaps.

One thing that's not subjective: this pasty white film form on my razor head, face, hand, or anywhere else these vegan lathers come into contact with. It's annoying, and it happens very quickly too, no matter how dense or wet the lather comes out. It's like the physical representation of what I feel these soaps lack.

I'd probably be less curious about it if I knew more about soap making. Maybe someone can enlighten me to a good reason for making a vegan soap over a tallow soap.

FWIW, I really love some of these vegan soaps, and feel that the ones I'm griping over deserve all the praise that they receive. The ones I've used lather like crazy, smell fantastic, and do protect me (just enough). I think the post shave they manage to provide is impressive... but it's only impressive for a vegan soap, IMHO. I inevitably expect someone to cite MdC and how luxurious it is, but the argument I'm trying to make is that I bet MdC could make an even better soap if they could formulate it with tallow and possibly lanolin. Perhaps I'm 100% wrong about that, but that's what I'm trying to put out there and learn about.

I really don't mean to bring about any defensiveness. Some of my frustration is just a part of the natural learning process as I figure out what's right for me... but boy is it deflating to hear boatloads of hype, build a gorgeous lather, smell something heavenly, and then have my face feel like it has a layer of alum on it before I even take my alum block out of its case.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Tallow is good because it contains stearic acid and myristic and lauric acids while being relatively low in a number of other acids. Could MdC be better with tallow? Well it depends on what you're looking to better about it. I have several vintage soaps I prefer to MdC, and many of the reasons are related to their use of tallow, though that's not the sole reason, nor is it likely even the most prominent reason. MdC as a baseline, would I suspect only suffer from the addition of tallow to the recipe, without additional changes to adapt and take advantage of what that did to the recipe.

Post-shave is a tricky business. Yes, post shave of a soap like MdC is likely to be behind most tallow soaps, but ironically, most tallow soaps post shave is likely to be behind most palm soaps. It's just how the fat makeup of the product breaks down. Generally, the differences in lather between products using these fats are more noticeable than post-shave results; leading people to preference one over the other, to the point of not even noticing that there are differences that advantage the "lesser" product. In the end, tallow saw use for as long as it did because it was one of the best naturally occuring substances available. With cheaper and more easily obtained isolated stearic acid, it's far less necessary, but that doesn't mean it can't still be used in extremely good products.

Tallow is whole milk. Stearic acid is the milkfat. And we're making ice cream. Yes you can make ice cream with milkfat and skim by adjusting ratios, but you can also make it with milkfat and whole milk, or milkfat and two percent, or one percent, etc. One isn't necessarily going to be richer than the other, as the maker controls the ratios; neither is one necessarily going to be sweeter than the other. It's just a decision of how you want to achieve the end product, the ice cream.

To the end you're looking for. Back in the day, a lot of reformulations were simultaneously removing tallow from soaps, and not properly replacing the stearate levels. This created an impression that tallow was necessary. Then artisans started copying MdC, creating the impression that tallow was if anything, detrimental, as artisan products based around MdC recipe became more reliably good than even commercial products. The truth is that there are reasons to use tallow, and some products take advantage of that, and it's up to the consumer to determine if those products prove superior for them, or if the opposite proves true, or if it's irrelevant so long as the product is properly balanced and well made. The issue of vegan vs tallow soaps is almost meaningless these days.

 

[TheChariot]

Wow. It's possible that I just learned more from that than I have any other single post I've read on B&B (except perhaps some of the ones by Chris from RazorPlate, but I understood yours waaaayyy more). Thanks for that.

Generally, the differences in lather between products using these fats are more noticeable than post-shave results; leading people to preference one over the other, to the point of not even noticing that there are differences that advantage the "lesser" product

This is something I'm noticing quite a bit. My favorite post shave comes from Stirling, but most people know that Stirling is a bit different to lather and has a bit of a learning curve for most people. This is probably the weird junction where YMMV comes into play, because I'm not bothered a bit by the lathering process, although it really bothers others. I was always under the impression that it was more due to the clay rather than the tallow, but now you've got me thinking that it's due to a complicated slew of soap wizardry voodoo that I would not understand without more experience.

 

[SliceOfLife]

The soaps themselves are complicated. Then you've got the various potential differences due to the residual fats (which weren't converted into soaps). Then the potential unsaponifiables IN the fats may have some influence. THEN you get into the effects of additives such as lanolin, clays, etc. And of course the differences in people's water and how it influences the function of soaps, and the use of other additives to affect that.

Yeah, it's a lot to process if you want to approach it from that end. The best advice I can give is that no one can tell you absolutely that one soap will work better for you than another. I don't care much for MWF at all, but I don't doubt that it is genuinely liked by the people who like it. There's so many variables involved in this, that while general truths can be had, sweeping statements about the performance of soaps as a whole, including post-shave feeling; are all but impossible to make. Certainly it would take someone with a far greater understanding than I could ever hope to achieve.

 

[zed117]

Wow. It's possible that I just learned more from that than I have any other single post I've read on B&B (except perhaps some of the ones by Chris from RazorPlate, but I understood yours waaaayyy more). Thanks for that.



This is something I'm noticing quite a bit. My favorite post shave comes from Stirling, but most people know that Stirling is a bit different to lather and has a bit of a learning curve for most people. This is probably the weird junction where YMMV comes into play, because I'm not bothered a bit by the lathering process, although it really bothers others. I was always under the impression that it was more due to the clay rather than the tallow, but now you've got me thinking that it's due to a complicated slew of soap wizardry voodoo that I would not understand without more experience.

+1 i have yet to try a soap with a better post shave. Love Stirling.

 

[Gig103]

Wow, slice, Thanks so much for the tutorial and the ice cream analogy!

 

[TheChariot]

Seriously. This will change my thought process when evaluating soaps.

 

[Musikmann]

Many thanks to SliceOfLife forhis primer on soap making.

The only trivial addition I can make to this discussion is as follows: I have 4 tubs from one very well respected artisan soap maker; 3 are vegan and 1 is tallow. With my water, technique, and other hardware, their vegans work better for me. I don't represent this as the best way to compare the competing methodologies, primarily due to the vast number of other variables. Plus I should try a couple more of their tallows before dismissing them completely.

Lastly, I'm not a Vegan and totally omniverous with what goes into my mouth.

 

[Glaze3]

I used to feel Tallow gave me a better post shave feel, but these days I honestly can't tell any significant difference. It seems to me that soap makers today have really perfected their craft and are turning out great soaps whether it be tallow or vegan. It's not something I even think about now.

 

[tromboneliness]

Another great bit of education from SliceOfLife--thank you!

One takeaway is that there are so many other variables in soapmaking you can't really pin any performance aspect down to just tallow/veggie. Is a given soap better because of tallow? Maybe.

As an example, I've been luxuriating with Strop Shoppe tallow soaps, partly because of the great post-shave feel. Who knows if it's the tallow or the shea butter, etc.?

 

[mattdenicola]

For reasons that I do not actually know, I just seem to prefer tallow. I've tried so many soaps, and I honestly have stopped paying attention to whether a soap is tallow based or not when I acquire it. Much less do I really remember which is which when I randomly reach for one from the cupboard. But every single time I cull my den and pick my favorite 2-3 soaps to keep, they are always tallow based. I just recently ditched a bunch of very great soaps in a den clearing. I actually loved them all, and I ended up discarding some tallow and some veggie. But the soaps I kept? The soaps I truly adore? All tallow. And I find the same pattern every time I do this exercise. Of course, I will continue to buy both tallow and veggie, knowing full well I will end up only keeping a select few, and knowing they are likely to only be tallow soaps. But I like trying a wide variety of things.

I always love hearing new input into the tallow/veggie discussion. The ice cream analogy is perhaps the best I've heard. And it highlights a point for me. Can you make "whole" milk by mixing skim with the appropriate ratio of cream? Or 2% milk by mixing skim and whole? I mean, I guess, if you only define milk by its percentage of milk fat. But I think there's more to it than that. Because I have absolutely tried those experiments, and I would always rather just have whole milk than skim mixed with cream. In all honesty, I'd rather just drink the cream. But to the point, perhaps it is all just perception. Perhaps others would love the skim/whole milk equally well or better than the standard 2%. But for me, there is a difference.

 

[Mango]

For me a good soap has to be tallow based.
Mamma Bear is the only one I rotate because it's glycerin based. However, since I've integrated Gillette slims in my shaving routine, I'm getting easier shaves (these razors are fabulous) .....I'll thus give a try to the creams and non tallow soap (of which a brand new MDC) stockpiled in my den to see how they perform with these razors.

 

[takeshi]

I inevitably expect someone to cite MdC and how luxurious it is, but the argument I'm trying to make is that I bet MdC could make an even better soap if they could formulate it with tallow and possibly lanolin.

As Slice said it really depends on what "better" (which is always subjective) you're specifically looking for. If MDC didn't deliver everything I wanted it wouldn't be the only soap I use.

 

[rodmonster]

It is an interesting experiment to compare vegan and tallow soaps from the same manufacturer. Most of the Maggard(Maria Arman) line of soaps are vegan, but their London Barbershop has tallow listed as the 3rd ingredient after stearic acid and coconut oil. I am not a soap-maker, but I assume that tallow is a minor fat in the saponification process. In any case, all of the Maggard soaps lather easily and provide a wonderful shave. I believe that the tallow soap moisturizes better, but I am not certain that I could tell them apart in a blind test.

I started out as a tallow snob. 3 of my top 5 soaps are vegan. I have seen the light.

 

[BSAGuy]

Very interesting and informative thread. Thanks for the knowledge, guys.

 

[ofelas]

Nice read.
I enjoy both MWF and Floris.
Now I can't get vanilla ice cream out of my head.

 

[chris.hale]

Tallow or no doesn't form part of my deciding to buy a soap, but the ones I like best all seem to contain it apart from MdC.

 

[bri62]

Thanks for putting it into words we can all understand. I really don't know how there can be a "BEST Shave Soap" or even a "Best Scent".
There are just too many variables. What I do know is that wet shaving is way more fun now then it was 20 years ago. All the top quality products and information available is awesome.