why not engine oil?

[kohalajohn]

I am dutifully using my expensive Ballistol on my ark.

And yes I know the reason is that since it mixes with water, one can wash it off easily.

But is washing important? this black ark creates very little swarf. and any swarf is contained in the oil. and eventually I can wipe the oil and swarf off with a paper towel. so what if a film of oil remains.

engine oil, first, is free since I just keep the oil can after topping up my car engine,and the couple ounces left in the bottom is great for wiping down rifles etc.

And second, engine oil has no deep penetrating solvents, which may eventually damage the gold on razors.

I get that I'd have to keep the ark in its wooden box, as a constantly oily surface would catch airborne grit particles. But I keep it in its box anyway.

thoughts appreciated.

 

[RayClem]

Generally, honing oils are some type of light mineral oil. Generally, you do not need a thick film of oil on the stone. I would think that a multi viscosity motor oil like that used in your car might be too thick such that you get little polishing action from your stone.

Also motor oil has a lot of additives designed to protect car engines. They may not be good for your skin. Mineral oil and Ballistol are non-toxic. However, I do not recommend swallowing it. I cannot imagine you are using so much Ballistol that it becomes a cost issue unless you are honing every day.

 

[Joshua223]

+1 @RayClem
If you want a cheaper option just buy a $1 bottle of mineral oil. Cheap, non-toxic, clear, and not as thick as motor-oil.

 

[Twelvefret]

Harley 30 weight

 

[Chandu]

Those black arks and translucents are so fine that usually something with low viscosity works better. Dan's sells honing oil which is mineral spirits cut with something thinner and it works much better than plain mineral oil.

Given the surface area in contact with the stone (large / broad contact) thicker oils are going for little pressure and make your honing take longer. Arkies aren't exactly speedy in the first place.

[Put's soap box into postion] I'm not a SR user / sharpener, but why is it that barbers back in the day generally just used a razor hone made by any number of companies and a strop and got perfectly serviceable edges that way? Razor hones were cheap (heck, still are compared to coti's and arkies and especially jnats, eschers and the like). Razor hones didn't have super fine grit, but they were burnished and acted much finer than they were.

Why do so many today think they need a stone for every 200 unit jump in grit starting at 800 and going to 20k. I think it's a big waste of money AND time to do something that barbers did daily in very little time. I think most barbers from 50 years ago would laugh if they saw what goes on now.

 

[Twelvefret]

Those black arks and translucents are so fine that usually something with low viscosity works better. Dan's sells honing oil which is mineral spirits cut with something thinner and it works much better than plain mineral oil.

Given the surface area in contact with the stone (large / broad contact) thicker oils are going for little pressure and make your honing take longer. Arkies aren't exactly speedy in the first place.

[Put's soap box into postion] I'm not a SR user / sharpener, but why is it that barbers back in the day generally just used a razor hone made by any number of companies and a strop and got perfectly serviceable edges that way? Razor hones were cheap (heck, still are compared to coti's and arkies and especially jnats, eschers and the like). Razor hones didn't have super fine grit, but they were burnished and acted much finer than they were.

Why do so many today think they need a stone for every 200 unit jump in grit starting at 800 and going to 20k. I think it's a big waste of money AND time to do something that barbers did daily in very little time. I think most barbers from 50 years ago would laugh if they saw what goes on now.

Several I’ve talked to only use one stone. Some like a Coticule edge and some Thuringian.

I figure those barbers got factory edge and maintained. Some of us get old and abused that require us to start from scratch, so more grits are useful.

 

[MO1]

Several I’ve talked to only use one stone. Some like a Coticule edge and some Thuringian.

I figure those barbers got factory edge and maintained. Some of us get old and abused that require us to start from scratch, so more grits are useful.

I bought a new razor from dovo when i first started using straights, sold as shave ready. it clearly wasnt though, unless they consider pulling hair from your face shave ready. bevel not properly set either, so stones was a must for me atleast, but it is a never ending rabbit hole

 

[Joshua223]

Those black arks and translucents are so fine that usually something with low viscosity works better. Dan's sells honing oil which is mineral spirits cut with something thinner and it works much better than plain mineral oil.

Given the surface area in contact with the stone (large / broad contact) thicker oils are going for little pressure and make your honing take longer. Arkies aren't exactly speedy in the first place.

[Put's soap box into postion] I'm not a SR user / sharpener, but why is it that barbers back in the day generally just used a razor hone made by any number of companies and a strop and got perfectly serviceable edges that way? Razor hones were cheap (heck, still are compared to coti's and arkies and especially jnats, eschers and the like). Razor hones didn't have super fine grit, but they were burnished and acted much finer than they were.

Why do so many today think they need a stone for every 200 unit jump in grit starting at 800 and going to 20k. I think it's a big waste of money AND time to do something that barbers did daily in very little time. I think most barbers from 50 years ago would laugh if they saw what goes on now.

[Realizes what happened to that box of soap]
Barbers maintained a factory edge.
I have seen barber estates with multiple razors, hones, and/or strops. I imagine most were minimalist though.
Most probably didnt have a large number of hones the same reason a carpenter doesn't have a bunch of framing squares. They were tools of the trade.

 

[Chandu]

Several I’ve talked to only use one stone. Some like a Coticule edge and some Thuringian.

I figure those barbers got factory edge and maintained. Some of us get old and abused that require us to start from scratch, so more grits are useful.

Thuringian, that's the one I couldn't think of that also fetches insane prices.

I get that not all vintage razors are in shape. But, for a restore I would think some glass and sand paper ala scary sharp would be a quick and painless way to get to the point of using your finisher, be it spendy stone or barber hone. Assuming you don't go buying straights that need restoring every week, scary sharp would be cost effective. Scary sharp gets expensive IF one does a lot of sharpening but for a one or few time restoration, it would be reasonable.

I think a lot here just enjoy collecting stones as much as razors. I work in woodcarving and sharpen my gouges by hand. I get them to a mirror polish as that is what woodcarving requires but I don't use a lot of stones. Usually fine India, Soft Ark and strop. If I did use a straight, I'm sure I could get a shaveable edge with those tools. Look at what Murray Carter does with his two cheap arse King Waterstones.

 

[Slash McCoy]

It doesn't matter whether or not motor oil is "good for the skin" or not. You aren't going to strop a razor dripping with oil. You are going to wipe it clean out of concern for the strop, if nothing else. Not an issue. It would have to be incredibly toxic for the few remaining molecules of oil on a wiped blade to have any effect on the human body.

As for the viscosity, ordinary motor oil is a good bit thicker than most honing oils. That isn't a dealbreaker, though. Viscosity of honing oil is just another variable. There is no "correct" viscosity. Thinner oil will allow a stone to cut more aggressively. Thicker oil will allow the same stone to cut less aggressively. Thinner = faster. Thicker = (potentially) sharper. Not a big deal, though. Use what you like. Use what you got. Use whatever blows your skirt up. Maybe give vegetable based oils a miss though, due to oxidation concerns. They can form a gummy coating on stuff. Some worse than others.

 

[Twelvefret]

Thuringian, that's the one I couldn't think of that also fetches insane prices.

I get that not all vintage razors are in shape. But, for a restore I would think some glass and sand paper ala scary sharp would be a quick and painless way to get to the point of using your finisher, be it spendy stone or barber hone. Assuming you don't go buying straights that need restoring every week, scary sharp would be cost effective. Scary sharp gets expensive IF one does a lot of sharpening but for a one or few time restoration, it would be reasonable.

I think a lot here just enjoy collecting stones as much as razors. I work in woodcarving and sharpen my gouges by hand. I get them to a mirror polish as that is what woodcarving requires but I don't use a lot of stones. Usually fine India, Soft Ark and strop. If I did use a straight, I'm sure I could get a shaveable edge with those tools. Look at what Murray Carter does with his two cheap arse King Waterstones.

There are affordable Thuringians and 3m lapping films are just $25.

 

[Chandu]

There are affordable Thuringians and 3m lapping films are just $25.

Can you post a link? I'd love to get an affordable one.

 

[Twelvefret]

Can you post a link? I'd love to get an affordable one.

Let me send you a link.

 

[RayClem]

It doesn't matter whether or not motor oil is "good for the skin" or not. You aren't going to strop a razor dripping with oil. You are going to wipe it clean out of concern for the strop, if nothing else. Not an issue. It would have to be incredibly toxic for the few remaining molecules of oil on a wiped blade to have any effect on the human body.

My concern was more about getting the oil on your hands than on your face. Of course, if you hone using nitrile gloves, that would not be an issue.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Well, most people get oil, grease, dirt, chemicals, paint, etc all over their hands in the course of a normal workday. If their job requires them to actually work, that is.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I did a big test of 20+ barber hones a few years back. Maybe 4 were shave worthy.

“Binder breakdown” was postulated by others as a reason most barbers synthetic hones are now quite poor. While some definitely show evidence of this, it’s a minority. I think it was a combination of a lot of bad products geared towards home shavers who had accepted that their shave was going to be inferior, and a technique that involved maintaining a sharp razor with VERY limited use of a relatively coarse hone, tamed with heavy and repeated stropping. Lucky guys owned natural stones, and a few synthetics gave a decent edge, but you really rolled the dice buying a barber hone.

As for barbers, I’ve bought several bags from old barbers estates, and never seen one without a coticule.

 

[RayClem]

Well, most people get oil, grease, dirt, chemicals, paint, etc all over their hands in the course of a normal workday. If their job requires them to actually work, that is.

OSHA regulations require that people wear gloves so skin contact with harmful chemicals does not occur. Whether everyone complies is a different matter.

 

[Namkcakram]

I don’t know why I keep responding to oil threads, I’m a chemical engineer and people still want to pick arguments about silly points out of a whole info dump, but here goes...

Kinematic viscosity at room temp and specific gravity are the two physical properties that matter in honing feel and performance.

Beyond those two primary parameters are a few other layers of consideration, one of which is “is this crap bad for me?” The answer for motor oil is yes. Will you get cancer tomorrow? No, but is using it here the best way to save money? Probably not.

The next consideration is what to actually watch out for with long term use on a microscopically porous stone: additives. There’s always concern over maintaining the stones surface long term. Do you actually need to clean oil off your stone? If it’s a relatively pure oil or oil solvent mix, no it really won’t matter whatsoever. If your oil has the wrong additives depending on your honing habits the answer could be anything from “eh... clean it anually with gentle dish soap and toothbrush” to “you can’t remove that from there... resurface your stone and try again”. The wrong additives are really anything micronized and suspended in the oil that’s intended to become a sacrificial wear particle. For a lot of lighter household use oils the common one would be “PTFE” which is more or less a high molecular weight plastic that has the density to hold two metal pieces apart in normal household objects, but not the density to damage either metal piece. If the particle size is right, it’s potentially the ultimate stone clogger over long use periods. With motor oils we are talking higher temperatures and pressures, so they use some type of soft wear metal additive (most likely Molybdenum centric) which could also potentially be a stone clogger. Now This is obviously my background, but even I’ve never done the real science of plugging a stone and checking it out under a microscope so let’s just say I’m wrong and it won’t plug the stone at all ever. Do you still want to separate your edge from the stone with a billion microscopic softer metal blobs that are specifically designed to prevent surface wear? Arks are slow enough as it is... So motor oil fails the additive consideration.

The last one is smell/cleanup. Really the only two I’ve used that smell good are “camellia” oil which I’m 95% sure was thin mineral oil with scent added, and Dr. Bronners magic 18-in-1 pure hemp Castile oil whatever all one god religion soap. The Dr Bs actually comes in many scents and they seem to vary ever so slightly in viscosity too. The scentless baby version is thinnest I think, but tea tree or almond can make you totally forget you’re honing a razor and afterwards you can wash your hands USING THE SWARF! Motor oil fails smell/cleanup consideration bigtime.

Motor oil is just a poor choice. On top of being 0 for 3 in the secondary considerations, it’s usually pretty far out there in kinematic viscosity even if you ignore any possible wear additive interference. Most people seem to think pharm grade mineral oil is even too thick (maybe 10w at room temp?), and I personally cut pharm mineral oil with everclear on my stones. That mix doesn’t do so hot on the smell test but is non toxic so you COULD drink some if you want to be drunk and stuck on the toilet later. It’s pretty easy cleanup, cheap, zero additives, non rusting, allows a pretty wide range of viscosity depending on the mix, and you can clean your stone completely with the extra everclear. You may find this mix too thick, in which case you may look at a lighter oil like WD-40 which is non-toxic very thin fish oil in the original liquid formula.

Ballistol is actually pretty nice if you decide to stay on the lighter viscosity side, and mixed with water gives that cool honing on milk effect that can really highlight your undercut on a flat surgical black ark.

 

[Chandu]

@Namkcakram

THANK YOU!

 

[kohalajohn]

I've decided to go with Ballistol instead of engine oil. I use engine oil all the time, for many things. Not worried about getting my hands dirty.

But I want ease of cleaning so it doesn't get over the strop. And as he says, you get the visual tells from the whiteness. So back to water/ballistal.