Ok. Thank you!
Why Hone Edge Leading?
- Thread starter rbscebu
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rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
The fool's pass (ATG upper lip) is probably the definitive test for a SR edge. When the fool's pass is BBS close and as comfortable as WTG on your cheeks, you know that you are there.
A s for your variation from using pasted balsa strops, you will notice and improvement if you follow the pasted balsa stropping method to the letter.
Thanks!
I think the most important factor is the quality control of the diamond or CBN you buy. The substrate you apply it to also matters. CBN on balsa will yield a different result then CBN on leather. You also have these so called nano cloths, which has this honeycomb micro structure to allow the abrasives particles to imbed into the substrate. One more factor is how you apply it, and how much.
Thank you. Lots of opportunity to experiment!
There are some very interesting micrographs (Scanning Electron Microscope images) located at scienceofsharp - https://scienceofsharp.com/ that clearly show Todd's results for edge leading, and edge trailing both done on the same razor with the same stone. The edge trailing edge appears to be perhaps 1/3 or less of the width of the same edge honed on the same stone the other way, leading edge and so quite a bit sharper. This would seem to be the obvious better method except the edge coming from trailing edge honing has a pronounced foil edge on it. From what I am seeing, it may well be a great way to hone by using the edge trailing method followed by something to remove the foil edge without blunting it at all. Perhaps 2 or 3 sets of sideways moves where the razor is lightly pulled over the stone straight down the spine, from heel to toe? Or perhaps a handful of fairly aggressive laps on linen and leather? I am speculating here because Todd does not go further than creating the edges and showing them on his site, there is nothing to indicate that he tried to remove the foil edge after honing. ?? It might be worth a little bit of time to those who find this curious to see if the idea has any merit.
His approach for removing the foil edge is to strop on a hanging denim strop loaded with compound (metal polish). Then he brings it back by stropping on leather loaded with diamond. I guess you could replace the last step by using a fine synthetic stone with a minimal amount of laps to "creep" up on the edge.
I only tried it once. I think I rounded the edge to much to bring it back to where i like the edge with just the diamond pasted strop. I also do not like convex bevels that this first approach gives. For me the geometry if the bevel is key, but that is a different topic.
Just my own personal opinion but once a razor is used on any kind of pasted <anything>, I believe the original edge from stones or film is lost. If used with aggressive cutting compounds it really does not matter what the razor was honed on at all- synthetics, natural stones, whatever. The abrasive compound used last is what will give the edge its sharpness and feel. Nothing wrong with that at all, just saying that if a razor is honed on, say, a coticule then stropped on material(s) charged with effective abrasives then the razor no longer has a coticule honed edge.
What I was suggesting would be more like honing a razor on whatever stone, edge trailing, then staying on that very same stone and gently pulling the razor across that same stone to remove the foil edge. That way the foil edge would (might?) be removed but the razor actually finished on the stone it was honed on. Strop on uncharged materials and shave.
While the edge may be different if pulled across the stone instead of pushing it perpendicular to the spine and edge, most people seem to use rounded X strokes to finish a razor anyway, leaving at least the portion near the toe having been moved perpendicular to the edge anyway, and the toe is not substantially different than the middle or heel of the razor.
What I was suggesting would be more like honing a razor on whatever stone, edge trailing, then staying on that very same stone and gently pulling the razor across that same stone to remove the foil edge. That way the foil edge would (might?) be removed but the razor actually finished on the stone it was honed on. Strop on uncharged materials and shave.
While the edge may be different if pulled across the stone instead of pushing it perpendicular to the spine and edge, most people seem to use rounded X strokes to finish a razor anyway, leaving at least the portion near the toe having been moved perpendicular to the edge anyway, and the toe is not substantially different than the middle or heel of the razor.
The edge is really delicate at this stage. If you deliberately create a foil edge with edge trailing passes and lightly "joint" the edge you will need to revisit the finishing stone, or maybe even go further back. You might be able to bring the edge back quite fast depending on how you do it. The problem is that as the foil edge break off metal builds on the stone, and you end up dragging the edge through metal buildup. The edge close to the toe will be more damaged then the heel.
This effect is quite noticeable if you do it on long kitchen knifes.
Yes, it can be a tricky situation to deal with. If the foil/wire edge gets ripped loose, you are left with a jagged mess which requires more work. Todd's way works well if you get it right. I've tried it and gotten a very comfortable shave. But I like my stones.
It seems likely that the lore about the Shapton Glass 16K not being razor-suitable (which I have also found in my own use) comes from this article on the Jende site: Shapton Stone Tutorial Part 1: Introduction to the Shapton Pro and Glass Series - https://jendeindustries.wpcomstaging.com/2009/10/21/shapton-stone-tutorial-part-1-introduction-to-the-shapton-pro-and-glass-series/
The article includes this diagram:
The article includes this diagram:
Agreed, the edge is delicate on any razor even close to shaving- sharp. But I believe that can be addressed by being gentle (serious here, not sarcastic) and having a specific way to deal with it that is <hopefully> repeatable. For example, you mention more damage on a long knife dragging the edge sideways and no doubt that may well be true but only if one draws the knife its full length over the stone. If one puts the razor down on the stone and moves it back and forth along the edge for, say, 2 or 3mm, the effects would be very consistent across the razor. Of course this would have to be done in steps if the stone was not as wide or long as the razor but even so, it would be an easy and repeatable process. Of course I agree that simply breaking off the foil edge is not desirable but that said, it is really quite small and thin and I believe would be easy to remove with a minimum of strokes across the stone.
I too am wary of 'joining' the edge of a razor. I have watched videos of Alex Gilmore do it with seemingly great results but honestly, dragging a razor's edge over any abrasive, perpendicular to the razor's faces. Mr. Gilmore has vastly more experience and knowledge that I do and probably than I will ever have, and it clearly works for him but I remain wary that <I> could pull this off and keep the whole process moving forward to a better shaving edge.
Further, the entire foil edge does not have to be removed by the stone. Perhaps the foil edge could be weakened and thinned at the very edge of the razor proper using a stone, such that normal plain leather stropping would actually remove it with little or no impact on the razors effective edge, which was produced during trailing strokes on the stone in the first place.
So again, it is just that given the actual micrographs on Todd's site, it looks like the edge trailing strokes leave a far thinner edge on a razor than leading edge strokes, at least as Todd did it on his razor and stones. This leads me to believe that it could be very beneficial to find a way to reliably and hopefully easily remove that foil edge while leaving the actual stone- honed edge basically intact. At the end of the day, any method that leaves a uber- sharp razor behind without that razor being harsh is great and I think worthy of pursuing.
I may well try this method also but at the moment I am stumbling down the path to honing on natural stones and that is taking up my honing time. My standard method is to hone to something close to a sharp edge and finish it off with charged balsa, which I find almost unbelievably forgiving and always yields excellent results even if the path there is somewhat dubious. Honing on a Jnat is simply a current interest that I am enjoying learning and mostly falling short of in practice. Should I get to the place where I can reliably produce a 'nice' or 'more than adequate' shaving edge using natural stone(s), I may move onto this very interesting, at least to me, area of what I think of as 'dragging' honing followed by removing the foil edge. Unlike Todd, I do not have a S.E.M. in my back pocket to check my own results though.....
I too am wary of 'joining' the edge of a razor. I have watched videos of Alex Gilmore do it with seemingly great results but honestly, dragging a razor's edge over any abrasive, perpendicular to the razor's faces. Mr. Gilmore has vastly more experience and knowledge that I do and probably than I will ever have, and it clearly works for him but I remain wary that <I> could pull this off and keep the whole process moving forward to a better shaving edge.
Further, the entire foil edge does not have to be removed by the stone. Perhaps the foil edge could be weakened and thinned at the very edge of the razor proper using a stone, such that normal plain leather stropping would actually remove it with little or no impact on the razors effective edge, which was produced during trailing strokes on the stone in the first place.
So again, it is just that given the actual micrographs on Todd's site, it looks like the edge trailing strokes leave a far thinner edge on a razor than leading edge strokes, at least as Todd did it on his razor and stones. This leads me to believe that it could be very beneficial to find a way to reliably and hopefully easily remove that foil edge while leaving the actual stone- honed edge basically intact. At the end of the day, any method that leaves a uber- sharp razor behind without that razor being harsh is great and I think worthy of pursuing.
I may well try this method also but at the moment I am stumbling down the path to honing on natural stones and that is taking up my honing time. My standard method is to hone to something close to a sharp edge and finish it off with charged balsa, which I find almost unbelievably forgiving and always yields excellent results even if the path there is somewhat dubious. Honing on a Jnat is simply a current interest that I am enjoying learning and mostly falling short of in practice. Should I get to the place where I can reliably produce a 'nice' or 'more than adequate' shaving edge using natural stone(s), I may move onto this very interesting, at least to me, area of what I think of as 'dragging' honing followed by removing the foil edge. Unlike Todd, I do not have a S.E.M. in my back pocket to check my own results though.....
@BDF , I think it would be an interesting experiment although not one I'm interested in doing myself. My guess is that in order to remove a foil that large, and re-establish the apex afterwards, you're going to end up doing some variation of jointing (or at least careful pull strokes) followed by a few edge leading strokes. Or more than a few, depending on how the foil breaks off. And then you're basically back at "normal" honing, aren't you?
The other question I have, is how much do you gain by thinning the apex that much on the stone? There are other micrographs on that site that illustrate just how much thinning happens through stropping, both at the apex and behind it. Anyone who's tried shaving off a lower grit stone can attest to how much effect stropping really has in terms of making an "unfinished" edge shaveable.
To clarify, I'm talking about clean linen and leather. Obviously pasted strops take that even further.
The other question I have, is how much do you gain by thinning the apex that much on the stone? There are other micrographs on that site that illustrate just how much thinning happens through stropping, both at the apex and behind it. Anyone who's tried shaving off a lower grit stone can attest to how much effect stropping really has in terms of making an "unfinished" edge shaveable.
To clarify, I'm talking about clean linen and leather. Obviously pasted strops take that even further.
A curious mind needs to do his own testing. The outcome will probably be quite similar to what more experienced people are reporting.Agreed, the edge is delicate on any razor even close to shaving- sharp. But I believe that can be addressed by being gentle (serious here, not sarcastic) and having a specific way to deal with it that is <hopefully> repeatable. For example, you mention more damage on a long knife dragging the edge sideways and no doubt that may well be true but only if one draws the knife its full length over the stone. If one puts the razor down on the stone and moves it back and forth along the edge for, say, 2 or 3mm, the effects would be very consistent across the razor. Of course this would have to be done in steps if the stone was not as wide or long as the razor but even so, it would be an easy and repeatable process. Of course I agree that simply breaking off the foil edge is not desirable but that said, it is really quite small and thin and I believe would be easy to remove with a minimum of strokes across the stone.
I too am wary of 'joining' the edge of a razor. I have watched videos of Alex Gilmore do it with seemingly great results but honestly, dragging a razor's edge over any abrasive, perpendicular to the razor's faces. Mr. Gilmore has vastly more experience and knowledge that I do and probably than I will ever have, and it clearly works for him but I remain wary that <I> could pull this off and keep the whole process moving forward to a better shaving edge.
Further, the entire foil edge does not have to be removed by the stone. Perhaps the foil edge could be weakened and thinned at the very edge of the razor proper using a stone, such that normal plain leather stropping would actually remove it with little or no impact on the razors effective edge, which was produced during trailing strokes on the stone in the first place.
So again, it is just that given the actual micrographs on Todd's site, it looks like the edge trailing strokes leave a far thinner edge on a razor than leading edge strokes, at least as Todd did it on his razor and stones. This leads me to believe that it could be very beneficial to find a way to reliably and hopefully easily remove that foil edge while leaving the actual stone- honed edge basically intact. At the end of the day, any method that leaves a uber- sharp razor behind without that razor being harsh is great and I think worthy of pursuing.
I may well try this method also but at the moment I am stumbling down the path to honing on natural stones and that is taking up my honing time. My standard method is to hone to something close to a sharp edge and finish it off with charged balsa, which I find almost unbelievably forgiving and always yields excellent results even if the path there is somewhat dubious. Honing on a Jnat is simply a current interest that I am enjoying learning and mostly falling short of in practice. Should I get to the place where I can reliably produce a 'nice' or 'more than adequate' shaving edge using natural stone(s), I may move onto this very interesting, at least to me, area of what I think of as 'dragging' honing followed by removing the foil edge. Unlike Todd, I do not have a S.E.M. in my back pocket to check my own results though.....
I have tried different variations of joining the edge with the same conclusion every time. My best results come from a gradual refinement process, trying to avoid any false edge from forming. Jnats are really hard to beat in my opinion.
I think I put it poorly but I am not suggesting joining but rather laying the razor down flat on a stone (or film) and moving it just a little bit fore and aft to remove the foil edge.
Also, I am not in any way comparing edge trailing honing with any other method, abrasive type or anything else. It merely struck me as quite interesting that the micrographs that Todd published specifically comparing edge leading with edge trailing show such a large difference, and I thought it would be worth some testing specifically to remove that foil edge to see what kind of a shaving edge would be left and how it worked. As to me testing that myself I may but not right now as my honing plate is full trying to learn how to hone on a rock and I am not looking for more variables at this time. That plus the fact that I already have a method that works well for me and that method is film or stone followed by charged balsa.
So again, I am not looking for a 'better' method, merely curious about edge trail honing and if someone tried some different methods using a razor honed that way to basically finish it by removing the foil edge, I would gladly read that person's findings.
Also, I am not in any way comparing edge trailing honing with any other method, abrasive type or anything else. It merely struck me as quite interesting that the micrographs that Todd published specifically comparing edge leading with edge trailing show such a large difference, and I thought it would be worth some testing specifically to remove that foil edge to see what kind of a shaving edge would be left and how it worked. As to me testing that myself I may but not right now as my honing plate is full trying to learn how to hone on a rock and I am not looking for more variables at this time. That plus the fact that I already have a method that works well for me and that method is film or stone followed by charged balsa.
So again, I am not looking for a 'better' method, merely curious about edge trail honing and if someone tried some different methods using a razor honed that way to basically finish it by removing the foil edge, I would gladly read that person's findings.
I typically finish my razors on 0.1 micron CBN charged balsa. The edges work very well for me and are both extremely sharp and very smooth. And of course all stropping on balsa is edge following simply because there is no other choice; edge leading on balsa will leave a very poor, dull edge and wood shavings all over the floor.
The sharpest razor I have ever used was honed using small circles on 0.5 micron diamond film. The problem with that edge is that it required a trip back to film for every shave. I do the same thing with balsa but balsa stropping is far easier and faster than film setup and honing.
The sharpest razor I have ever used was honed using small circles on 0.5 micron diamond film. The problem with that edge is that it required a trip back to film for every shave. I do the same thing with balsa but balsa stropping is far easier and faster than film setup and honing.
Removing a foil edge you have 3 options, breaking it off on a strop, (leaves a ragged edge) honing it off on higher grits, thinning the foil until it falls off or is beat off on slurry, (created or auto slurry) very technique driven, or cut it off straight and cleanly, by jointing.
Once the bevels are flat and in the correct plane, the bevels can be brought back to meeting in as few as 3-5 laps depending on the finish grit and the stone pressure used to joint.
I do not get the hand wringing about jointing, you are just removing the fin, microns of steel and resetting the edge in a handful of laps. Try it, then decide.
Side honing, parallel to the edge does not remove the fin, it just straightens it.
You do not need an SEM to perfect your edges, the edge is straight and shaves well or it does not. Balsa and Diamonds will keep you shaving, but there are much better edges and where you are not a slave to the balsa, recreating the edge after every shave.
Once the bevels are flat and in the correct plane, the bevels can be brought back to meeting in as few as 3-5 laps depending on the finish grit and the stone pressure used to joint.
I do not get the hand wringing about jointing, you are just removing the fin, microns of steel and resetting the edge in a handful of laps. Try it, then decide.
Side honing, parallel to the edge does not remove the fin, it just straightens it.
You do not need an SEM to perfect your edges, the edge is straight and shaves well or it does not. Balsa and Diamonds will keep you shaving, but there are much better edges and where you are not a slave to the balsa, recreating the edge after every shave.
I have one razor that is maintained with CBN on balsa. The rest of my razors are finished differently, not better. For me pasted balsa counts as a joining step to clean up the edge.
Shaving with one type of edge only is like eating the same thing every day for me. For someone else it is just shaving and boring maintenance.
